Give Me the 20% That's Real feat. Jim Wardlaw

Christine Watts

[0:00:00]

Hey, welcome to Impact Moments powered by 90. In this episode, we're sitting down with Jim Wardlaw. He's an expert EOS implementer with over 13 years of experience and approaching a thousand sessions.

Kris Snyder

[0:00:13]

He's actually one of Geno Wickman's original clients back when EOS was still called Business Accelerator. So he's really seen the system evolve since the very beginning.

Christine Watts

[0:00:21]

You're going to get a lot from this conversation. Jim breaks down courage and how it's the single most important quality of a high-performing team, and he ties that into a framework that completely reframes how you think about team dynamics. He also shares a story from one of his sessions where a single moment of vulnerability completely transformed a leadership team's dynamic overnight.

Kris Snyder

[0:00:42]

And we also get into AI, how it's a bridge to better human thinking, not a replacement for it. And Jim's got a really cool perspective. He's got a master's in creativity. He's writing a book on it. So you're not going to want to miss this one. Let's get into it.

Christine Watts

[0:01:01]

Hey, welcome to Impact Moments powered by 90. I'm Christine.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:01:05]

I'm Chris Snyder.

Christine Watts

[0:01:06]

And we are talking to Jim Wardlaw today. Thank you for coming.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:01:10]

My pleasure.

Christine Watts

[0:01:10]

Yeah. So, um, I'd love to get a quick intro from you, who you are. Um, and I know you're an EOS implementer, so tell us a little bit about how that came to be.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:01:19]

Oh, geez, that's quite a story. So I used to own a small ad agency in East Lansing, Michigan, and I was a member of EO and was invited down. Actually, Jonathan Smith, who you may know as an implementer as well, and I were table mates in EO in Detroit. And Jonathan invited me to an event. And so I met this guy there, Gino Wickman. who came up to me and he was an interesting guy.

Kris Snyder

[0:01:46]

He had this system he was working on called the business accelerator at the time.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:01:52]

And he said, I got this thing. It's going to be huge. I got to show it to you. So he comes up to my East Lansing offices and he draws this big pie chart on the wall, you know, or on the whiteboard. And we ended up hiring him. So he was my implementer a bunch of years ago now. I think his rate was $1,500 a day or something. A long time ago.

Kris Snyder

[0:02:12]

Yeah, it might be 10x that now. It might be, at least. Something like that.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:02:15]

But we worked with Gino for a few years, actually. I had a business partner. And he said, I remember very clearly, he said, you two are the most extreme visionary integrator relationship I've ever seen. And if you can make it work, it's going to be amazing. But I sort of doubt that you're going to make it work. A few years later, after 12 years of owning the business together, I actually fired her and she ended up buying the business from me. So that's what it took for us to get that transaction done. But then I sold the firm in 2007, as I said to her, and fast forward, sort of did the corporate thing for a while. Didn't like that very much. I'm more entrepreneurially minded. And then life sort of took a big right-hand turn.

Kris Snyder

[0:02:55]

I ended up heading to Buffalo, New York, to do a master's at the Center for Applied Imagination.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:03:02]

I got a master's in Creativity and Organizational Change Management. The center is the oldest organization in the world, really focused on the study of creative problem-solving process. It's actually where brainstorming started.

Kris Snyder

[0:03:16]

That's a long story there, but I can share that.

Christine Watts

[0:03:18]

What pulled you there? That's such a unique...

Kris Snyder

[0:03:21]

Well, I had a background on the creative side in advertising. I actually had a bachelor of fine art degree from Michigan State in graphic design and started sort of on that side. And then, you know, I looked good in a suit and they said, you should be an account executive. And I had this sort of creative background.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:03:37]

And so I had this weird mix of sort of business and creative.

Kris Snyder

[0:03:41]

So I came up on that side of it and then went into account service and management. Were you a fan of Mad Men? Oh yeah, it's a little dark though. Awaken too many demons I think in some ways, but really enjoyed it. What I liked about it was like just you knew there was an unlock coming. Like they were struggling on a problem set, but it was that creative moment.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:04:03]

And obviously Don Draper, whatever, right, was going to have that unlock. But then they started opening up some of the other characters and how they were interacting.

Kris Snyder

[0:04:09]

and having this moment.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:04:10]

So it was very dark, but I did enjoy it. But that's actually what led me to the Center for Applied Imagination, because I'd always been interested in creativity, its source, you know, what motivates you, where does insight come from, where do ideas come from, and had heard about this place a long time ago. And then when sort of things went sideways, I said, you know what, I'm gonna go do this. And it was an opportunity for me to reinvent a little bit and sort of get my life refocused. And then actually I got a call from Jonathan, And he said, have you seen that thing Geno's working on?

Kris Snyder

[0:04:41]

I said, yeah, that thing he talked about? Yeah, EOS, it's called.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:04:45]

I said, interesting. And he said, I think I'm going to go get certified. And then about six months later, I did the same thing. So I was the first implementer in Western New York and Ontario, sort of evangelizing the good book, Traction, and started, you know, as many do, with a few clients. And then it began to build, I think, for probably five or six years. I sort of had the place to myself. and then recruited a couple people and they joined. Now there's about eight of us, I think, in Western New York and I think 28 implementers in Ontario. So, but that's sort of, you know, I became an implementer. I'm an expert implementer now. I've done about 125 implementations, 950 sessions or so. All shapes and sizes of companies, but it's been a fantastic journey. EOS is a very powerful system, you know, and There is nothing more rewarding than to see those ideas get generated and executed on.

Kris Snyder

[0:05:37]

So I think that's what I enjoy about it most.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:05:39]

I find it interesting. I'd love to pull on the thread a little bit more. So many people, I've seen so many people struggle when they have EOS because it is a system.

Kris Snyder

[0:05:49]

There's not a lot of creativity in it, right?

Jim Wardlaw

[0:05:52]

But it unlocks or lets you have the opportunity to have creativity in other ways.

Kris Snyder

[0:05:57]

But there's been people I've seen that just, they have to try to write their own system.

Christine Watts

[0:06:01]

Yeah. Great.

Kris Snyder

[0:06:02]

And they're creative in their nature. So they're like, you know, we've had some of those conversations. I don't want to call it rocks. I want to call it boulders. And, and I, and I, when I have those moments, I'm like, you're, you're missing for me what the, what the opportunity was, which was not have to worry about the system.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:06:16]

That's right.

Kris Snyder

[0:06:17]

Worry about the work, right. That the system gives you the opportunity to do.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:06:20]

Yeah, you know, somebody once said, I don't remember who I attribute this to, but they said, you know, the reason that we have systems is so that you can allow extra capacity to show up in your mind, right? So now you have more capacity to think, more capacity to generate ideas. It might have been the guy behind Second Brain, now that I think about it.

Kris Snyder

[0:06:39]

But he said, look, I have systems that can do that stuff.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:06:43]

Now that gives me more room to think and create. And I think EOS is sort of somewhat similar, right?

Kris Snyder

[0:06:48]

We have a system. We know it's proven. We know it works.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:06:50]

I'll be the first to admit I'm a high ideator, nine quick start, love new ideas, love the future, love to live in what if. And the problem with that, of course, is that when I first started doing EOS, I kept reinventing.

Kris Snyder

[0:07:02]

And I've got to be able to do this better or Gino can't be right or something, right?

Jim Wardlaw

[0:07:06]

I have to tell you, I've eaten my words more times than I care to admit that there was terrific work done by Gino over seven or eight years, sort of in his basement.

Kris Snyder

[0:07:15]

And he built a system that is incredibly reliable.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:07:20]

I always tell my clients maybe 95% of the problems you face can be solved somewhere inside EOS if you really become a good student of the system and apply its thinking and its frameworks. And, you know, like I said, I can't tell you how many times Gina was right.

Kris Snyder

[0:07:34]

So I think it's a well-designed system for sure.

Christine Watts

[0:07:38]

So was he writing the book as he was working with you guys in your business then?

Jim Wardlaw

[0:07:44]

No, I think that those, the book was, well, he might have been actually now that I'm thinking about it.

Christine Watts

[0:07:49]

Did you feel like that workshoppy aspect?

Jim Wardlaw

[0:07:51]

You know, he did a lot of that workshoppy stuff.

Kris Snyder

[0:07:54]

You know, he's, as you know, he's one of those guys that loves to make sure that it's right before he introduces it.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:08:00]

So I think he spent a ton of time sort of getting it right and then started to recruit people.

Kris Snyder

[0:08:05]

So I think I was about number 50 probably in terms of implementers.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:08:10]

And, you know, at that point, the system, I think, was pretty well founded. And then it was just a matter of convincing people that it was legitimate, right? It was a real thing. And, you know, the rest is sort of history, as they say, I guess. It's been a remarkable sort of trajectory. What I've been fascinated by Christine is there's like everything does have a purpose. And there's probably a, we call them quarterly collaborative exchanges where the implementers get together.

Kris Snyder

[0:08:35]

I think it was maybe two or three quarters ago, we were talking as implementers about this section of the implementation. I think it's in focus day where we're walking through like six questions that you're asking the team. It's kind of a buy-in section. And there was a pretty big sentiment in the room.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:08:51]

that people don't do it, that they don't see the purpose in it.

Kris Snyder

[0:08:55]

And so Gina was there and he's like, let me, let me do it with you so that you see it. And he did. And it was like, you found the purpose in it again. It was like, cause he, he walked through the sections of why that question matters versus just looking at it on the page and going, nah, I could skip that. And, and sometimes people skip things like that because of time.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:09:17]

And often how the question is asked. I mean, he really spent time on every word and testing, you know, the impact or the output of, you know, that question or that phrase or that concept or construct. I mean, it just is remarkable to me to tell the truth.

Kris Snyder

[0:09:33]

Yeah, I agree.

Christine Watts

[0:09:34]

Well, I'm curious, you came here today with an impact moment to share with the audience. So what is that?

Jim Wardlaw

[0:09:40]

Well, I think, you know, it's funny. I've been doing this for 13 years. So I have lots of those kinds of stories where I've seen sort of remarkable things happen with businesses. The thing, though, that recently has really struck me. And it, I don't know that I call it, well, it was an insight, I suppose. But I was reading, and this gets out there a little bit, but I was reading David Hawkins' book. I don't know if you're familiar with Power Versus Force or Letting Go. Interesting guy. He's an MD. He does some sort of edgy, you know, research and has some interesting opinions. But the thing that really caught my attention in this book was something he calls his map of consciousness. And it's a really simple idea. Essentially, it starts with sort of the lowest state of human emotion, which he calls shame. And on that scale, it's a 20. And then at the highest level of human sort of emotion, he calls it enlightenment. It's at a thousand. But about midway up that scale is 200. And at 200 is courage. And he said, this is the line between negative and positive. And when I read that, it really struck me that all of my teams, when they muster the courage to enter the danger, to deal with difficult topics, to address wrong people, to work for the greater good, to set their egos aside, are often in that positive space because they've mustered the courage to do what they know is right and not easy. But they always feel good about it. It might be really hard work, tough sledding, right? But they feel good about what they're doing. And the teams that drop below that line, in that negative space, are often anxious, uncertain, political, a lot of water cooler conversations, right? They're just not doing what they know they need to be doing, but they're terrified to do it.

Kris Snyder

[0:11:26]

And so I think that was probably a bigger insight for me in the last, you know, I would say a couple of years that courage is such an important quality in an effective team.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:11:38]

And so consequently, I've really encouraged my teams to start to recognize what it takes to push into that space. We call it entering the danger often inside EOS, but that's a very real thing. And when we can facilitate a process that allows those people to be more comfortable, having those difficult conversations and creating psychological safety around that, I think the outcome is often sort of dramatic. You know, we get at real issues, we change the momentum and the frame and the energy of the team, and they start to do things that maybe they didn't know they could do. So that's a really powerful thing for me. I've seen it happen too many times.

Christine Watts

[0:12:12]

It's interesting because I think we were just talking about this yesterday, the enter the danger concept, and it feels like a lot of times the EOS implementer is the one who like does that first. Yeah. Like they take that risk and open that up to the rest of the group.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:12:26]

That's very true.

Christine Watts

[0:12:27]

Is that what you found with your clients?

Kris Snyder

[0:12:28]

Yeah, I actually say to my teams, I say, you have to remember that vulnerability starts with you. Your courage, your willingness to be vulnerable will establish a line and people will often meet you there.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:12:39]

But they will not begin that process without you establishing that line first. So when you step into it, often people will rise. In fact, a quick little story, I'll never forget this. It was last summer and we were doing one of the exercises in an annual that we often do.

Kris Snyder

[0:12:56]

This particular exercise is called three questions that I do, which is the three most important people, three most important decisions, and three most important events in your life.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:13:03]

And at the end of the table, it's a pretty big team, at the end of the table is this guy.

Kris Snyder

[0:13:05]

He's probably in his, I would say mid-50s, you know, mature business guy.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:13:10]

And he starts answering these questions. And in the second question, most important people in his life, he breaks down and he can't finish the exercise.

Kris Snyder

[0:13:18]

He's so emotionally overcome. And, uh, I mean, it was really powerful, complete silence in the room.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:13:24]

People didn't know exactly what to do. And then there was this moment where, again, gives me chills talking about it, where the team sort of rallied around that vulnerability and they all came to him, you know, not physically, but emotionally came to him, met him in that space.

Kris Snyder

[0:13:40]

and supported him through this really difficult realization, you know, that I think it was about his grandparents raising him as a kid. And that team transformed at that moment.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:13:52]

They changed their dynamic. They changed the power of their relationships. They became a more vulnerable, open, communicative team. And every session from that point on was a different sort of session. So it just, you know, it reinforces that idea that if you have the courage to really step into it, everybody meets you there. And often I think human nature is to sort of support because they care for you, right?

Kris Snyder

[0:14:17]

They care.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:14:17]

That's right.

Christine Watts

[0:14:17]

Yeah.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:14:18]

They want you to be successful.

Kris Snyder

[0:14:21]

We see this in different stages of how the teams, the companies have come together, where maybe with some of the core value work you've done, and I've had this experience where we're doing core value work and they feel so close to each other that they want to have a core value of family.

Christine Watts

[0:14:35]

Right.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:14:35]

And you're like.

Kris Snyder

[0:14:36]

It's not really, you're familiar with each other, but core value of family probably isn't it. But let's talk about the emotion of that. And then there's the teams that you see that they're so far apart from that, that you're like, okay, we got to figure that out too.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:14:52]

That's right. Yeah, really interesting. And it does, you know, if they can start to bump up against that a little bit and start to really experience it, because I tell people ultimately what I'm going for is for them to start to see sort of insight and criticism and feedback as coming from a place of really deep caring and compassion for the teammate. Because if you really think about it, that courage I mentioned earlier, it takes a lot of guts to tell you something I know you don't want to hear, but you need to hear. And that comes from a place of deep caring and compassion for you as my teammate. And when I can receive that information, that feedback, as coming from that place, it no longer becomes an attack. It doesn't trigger me. It actually comes from a place of compassion and care. And when I start to see that in my teammates, that's a very powerful place. All of a sudden now everybody around me has my back and is supporting my success and is only telling me things they know I need to hear. And it's then my obligation to accept that feedback or not, you know, what I want to do with it, but really powerful.

Christine Watts

[0:15:50]

Are there certain exercises or things you go to when you see people starting to put up the walls and how to kind of take that first step?

Jim Wardlaw

[0:15:58]

Yeah, I mean, those take, I wouldn't say specific exercise. I mean, many of the exercises in EOS are about that, certainly, particularly during the annual that we do. You know, that dynamic takes some care and nurturing, right? It's something that comes along slowly. And there are a variety of tools, I think, inside U.S. and, frankly, inside 90 that help that conversation to happen. You know, I tell level, you know, a great level 10 meeting to me is a place where we learn from mistakes and we have a space where maybe six of your colleagues are waiting for you to have the courage to bring an issue to the table so they can help you solve that and make your life better, right? You know, and when people start to, oh, sorry, I'm hitting the mic. Um, when people start to recognize that, um, you know, that's why we have these meetings is for you to actually draw on the resources of your team and let them help you make your job and your life a little bit better. That becomes a powerful realization for them as well. So a lot of these frameworks I think are meant, uh, to, to sort of meet that need, right. To help people have different conversations.

Kris Snyder

[0:16:57]

You'll, you'll see it sometimes where, you know, in EOS we call it the same page meeting, right? Where you can just totally see that they're not, they're the two people who might be aren't on the same page. And then from EO experience, uh, I've always coached more as clear the air. Something's going on. I don't know what it is. You guys probably don't quite know what it is, but we need to clear the air here.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:17:18]

And that's one thing that, you know, you want them to probably go do in private because with the rest of the room, it might be something that's keeping them back from saying whatever that real issue is.

Kris Snyder

[0:17:28]

And that's part of the inner, the dangerous part of it being courageous enough to say it, to know. And when, when I've coached some of those, because sometimes it's bad enough that you're like, okay, I'll, I'll, I'll coach this. Cause we're not getting there. And it's keeping us from making the progress that you say that you want. It is, is really going back to that moment of saying, just talk about it in something as simple as what's not working yet in this relationship.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:17:51]

That's right.

Kris Snyder

[0:17:52]

And just go through what's not working yet. And then normally you'll find it's not the first one or the second one.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:17:57]

It's like the seventh one. It's like the mic drop at the end of their list that they're like, and you said that to me. And they're like, okay, there it is. That's right.

Kris Snyder

[0:18:05]

There it is. Now we can talk about it. Now we can talk about it.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:18:09]

That's right.

Christine Watts

[0:18:09]

Well, it's interesting, too, you brought up with the issues and bringing something up because everybody wants to come in and help you with that thing. And it's also the flip side of bringing something up because other people were just not courageous enough to bring it. They've been waiting for that topic or waiting for that thing.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:18:25]

Yeah, that can be powerful also. You know, I define an issue as a problem you can't solve on your own. I mean, we want people to solve problems every day in their seats. That to me is, you know, when you own a seat or when you GWC it, get it, want it, have the capacity to do it like we talk about inside EOS. What we're really saying is, you know, hey, I want to give you this job and I want you to solve problems all day. But once in a while, you're going to come across an issue that you can't solve on your own. Or as a leadership team member, maybe you see as a problem,

Kris Snyder

[0:18:51]

that we should be addressing.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:18:52]

And to me, that's what the power of a level 10 meeting is all about, right, is that you're able to bring that issue into that forum and really get at it and have people help you figure out a way to address it so that now you have a team of people helping you solve a problem that you're not in a capacity to solve yourself. But through that sort of shared understanding and that resource, you can start to get to an answer that works.

Kris Snyder

[0:19:14]

Do you have any isms that you've picked up, whether you generated it or you just find yourself when you're coaching and helping our clients, are there things like go-to phrases that you, that you pull through? One of mine, and I picked this up from counseling days, when I was being counseled, was the story I tell myself.

Christine Watts

[0:19:33]

Interesting.

Kris Snyder

[0:19:33]

So the reframe for me that works in that moment is when people feel like they're accusing each other of something and they don't know that to be true.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:19:40]

That's how they feel.

Kris Snyder

[0:19:42]

And just offering them the reframe is like, Hey, Christine, it sounds like the story you're telling yourself is that check in with Jim before you accuse him of that.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:19:50]

And then that, that reframe just seems to work much better because it's your story.

Kris Snyder

[0:19:55]

It's your truth potentially, but it's not yours. And so placing that on them versus letting them say, okay,

Jim Wardlaw

[0:20:01]

The story I'm telling myself, Jim, is that yesterday when you did blah, you know, and anyway, so that one seems to... That's powerful.

Kris Snyder

[0:20:08]

You know, it reminds me actually of something I picked up from Hank O'Donnell, who's a really amazing implementer in the U.S. community, but he has a technique where when two people are sort of battling it out and they're not on the same page, He'll turn to the person who's getting frustrated with this feedback, and he'll say, all right, give me the 20% that you agree with, the 20% that's real, of the 100% that just hits you like a freight train.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:20:34]

And that is a very leveling sort of conversation, because all of a sudden now we're finding commonality, and the 20% that's real is something we can start to talk about. And that often leads into the larger story and whatever else is being, you know, discussed there that's maybe not discussed, that needs to get talked about. So that's a really powerful ism or technique that I found works incredibly well.

Christine Watts

[0:20:56]

Yeah. And you brought up team health earlier too. Three, what was the name of the exercise you talked about?

Jim Wardlaw

[0:21:01]

Oh, three questions.

Christine Watts

[0:21:02]

Three questions. Yeah. And I feel like that's another good way to hear and understand people's perspectives and go a little bit deeper into even intention. Are there other team health exercises that you lean on for those? Yeah.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:21:14]

I mean, the traditional ones, you know, that we often will use as a personal histories exercise or what we call it one thing, which is a Patrick Lencioni sort of tool. Sometimes there's another one I use once in a while called the five big questions. And they're deeper. I usually do that second or third year. But things like, you know, what are you most ashamed of? What do you want for your family?

Kris Snyder

[0:21:34]

What do you regret most in life? And, you know, those sometimes can trigger some people to, you know, go a little deeper.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:21:39]

And, you know, frankly, it makes people uncomfortable a little bit sometimes, but also it allows them to push that line of vulnerability a little bit. So they get a little more comfortable with that experience in front of their colleagues.

Christine Watts

[0:21:50]

Yeah, it's interesting because we talk, people ask about like, what should I be doing for team health? And so we have this resource where it kind of ranks them in terms of, well, how much trust is on your team, because that's how vulnerable you're going to be able to get. And that's going to help guide you. And so, like you said, I'm not doing this until three years in because we haven't built a foundation yet to understand one another.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:22:10]

Yeah, it's a really important part of it. And I honestly think that we're sort of hardwired in many ways as humans, I believe, sort of evolutionarily speaking, you know, to sort of mitigate risk. I mean, you know, we live a lot in that sort of survival mentality where You know, frankly, getting kicked out of the tribe is not something that we like to do. So, you know, frankly, keep it keeping it low risk and making sure that people don't think that I'm not capable or weak is something we're always very mindful of. So, you know, when people, again, start to shift their thinking around the fact that their team is there to help them be successful, and this is a safe place where we can talk about these issues, you're not going to get kicked out of the tribe. We're going to help you be successful. I mean, that's a pretty powerful realization for them.

Christine Watts

[0:22:53]

Well, I'm curious, this is something we ask all of our guests because we talk a lot about the successes and the things that are going well and how things really worked out. But I like to reflect back on what's a moment that you feel like was your biggest fuck up?

Jim Wardlaw

[0:23:08]

Oh, I mean, that was probably early, you know. You know, I learned a long time ago that as a facilitator, our job is to sort of stay out of the content, right? Our job is there to help people have conversations and draw insights through questions and engagement. I learned real early that the minute that I took a position against someone in the room and we started a debate was the minute I lost the team and I lost the facilitation. So, you know, resisting that temptation to sort of begin to debate somebody, I think is a skill you learn. or a lesson maybe that you learned very early in your career. So that, I wouldn't call it a major fuck up, but I would call it a lesson learned and one that I try to avoid now as often as I possibly can to make sure that I'm just not triggering people in the room. My job is to get them to have a conversation, right? And to stay out of that content, let them develop the content.

Christine Watts

[0:24:06]

It's interesting because Chris, I feel like you do the same thing where you're trying to facilitate the conversation so people can come to their own realizations without like slapping them in the face with it, you know, which is definitely a skill.

Kris Snyder

[0:24:17]

The other thing, too, I've noticed over the years, again, just sort of an insight, is with 13 years,

Jim Wardlaw

[0:24:24]

There's two things that I find that are demons for me now. One is what we call sort of thin slicing, right? You come into a meeting in your first session and you realize that that guy's not right for the team and that's the wrong strategy and you're moving in the wrong direction there. And I've seen this pattern a thousand times before. Please don't do that. And you have to resist the temptation to consult. You know, I'm not there to consult. I'm there for them to develop that understanding. And the other challenge I find sometimes is you have so many nuggets and lessons in your head that you can lose sight sometimes of the core material that you're working on. So I resist those two temptations now.

Kris Snyder

[0:25:01]

It's to try to, you know, let people come to their own conclusions and, you know, not flood them with so much stuff that they can't see the core tool or the core insight or its application. Yeah, they're always, most of the time, the feedback, especially when you're doing the implementation days, the first time they've done sessions, they'll say something around at the end when you say, where's your head?

Christine Watts

[0:25:21]

How are you feeling?

Jim Wardlaw

[0:25:22]

I've been drinking from a fire hose all day.

Christine Watts

[0:25:24]

Right.

Kris Snyder

[0:25:25]

And then you have to, I always remind myself to back up and go, okay, what did you retain? Because we might need to revisit, because there's just a lot, especially when there's first three days.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:25:35]

Seven times, right? We've got to say it seven times before people hear it. I think that's a very true insight.

Christine Watts

[0:25:40]

Right.

Kris Snyder

[0:25:40]

Yeah, 100%.

Christine Watts

[0:25:41]

Yeah. Well, you're a fairly academic guy, so this is my last question. What are you reading or listening to or consuming right now that you're excited about?

Jim Wardlaw

[0:25:50]

Oh, man. I hate to even admit this, but AI is my distraction for sure. My son, who is also an implementer, Zach Wardlaw, got me introduced to Claude Code recently and you know all those projects I've been you know having sit on the shelf for years are now becoming real product and you know the ability to use AI in a way that moves you from a concept to a product so quickly is sort of mind-blowing. The power that's sort of within our grasp right now and it's just gonna get more powerful is absolutely consuming. It is the most interesting you know, side hobby that I have, I think, right now.

Christine Watts

[0:26:29]

I know, it's so exciting because it's such a tangible way to articulate what's in my brain.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:26:33]

It's unbelievable. A design, a thought, like an idea, a plan, anything.

Christine Watts

[0:26:37]

Is there any specific, like, person or channel or thing that you're looking at?

Kris Snyder

[0:26:42]

Yeah, I mean, I love Ray Kurzweil's book. You know, we talked about that a little bit before the interview. The Singularity is Nearer, I think, is a really interesting perspective on how rapidly this train is moving.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:26:53]

It's really coming at us quickly. Human cognition, I think, according to Ray Kurzweil, you know, will dramatically improve over the next 10 years due to its ability to sort of merge or connect with very powerful AIs. And I see that as sort of a stepping stone. In fact, I'm working on a book right now called Entropy that introduces a model sort of along those lines and sort of introduces AI as a stepping stone really to a higher level of cognition. The model I introduced in the book sort of makes the argument that imagination, human imagination, is sort of one of the most powerful forces we know of in the universe. that everything really below it can be influenced.

Kris Snyder

[0:27:33]

We're making black holes in our labs and changing the course of human evolution, and we're doing all kinds of things just through this little thing we have between our ears. And right now, it's the only thing between our ears that we know of.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:27:48]

You know, the question is, what does AI do? It either becomes more powerful than us and has an incredible capacity to imagine things that we have to imagine, or it's something that's a stepping stone that allows us to improve our own cognition, which I think is more likely. So I think people are afraid of AI and that it's going to lead to a decline in human performance. I think it's actually a bridge to future human performance.

Kris Snyder

[0:28:10]

I find my, my existing concern right now is that I'm collaborating less with humans and more with AI. Like I would consider Christine a thought partner.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:28:20]

That's right. And instead of picking up a phone or getting on a zoom call, I'll be like, Oh, I'll just, I'll collaborate with my Snyder writer for a while. That's right. And see what it thinks. And, and that I don't want to lose, right.

Kris Snyder

[0:28:32]

The human collaboration aspect to it.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:28:34]

It's, um, it's just more convenient because it's on my phone or whatever to start to go. think through a problem, think through an opportunity. And it's intoxicating. I mean, sometimes it thinks about things that maybe you haven't thought about or goes deeper in an area where you just have, you know, maybe touched the germ of an idea here and it's turned into something more remarkable than you had considered. And the human piece is very powerful. I mean, obviously, the work that I did in creativity and innovation is very much rooted in that idea. In fact, Alex Osborne's original insights, who sort of led to the Center for Applied Imagination, you know, was very much rooted in this idea that process could drive output.

Kris Snyder

[0:29:11]

You know, at the time in the early 50s, creativity was this unknown thing. It's like, in fact, the American Psychological Association stood up or the chair stood up and said, hey, we got to research this thing.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:29:23]

Interestingly, just a sidebar, Buff State back in the early 50s, when they started researching creativity,

Kris Snyder

[0:29:29]

They shortly thereafter introduced something called the Creative Problem Solving Institute at University of Buffalo, which still is going on today, by the way.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:29:36]

But the first sessions of that institute were all attended by men in little black ties and horn-rimmed glasses, and they were all government and military people interested in how creativity could offer us an edge against the Soviets in the early 60s. You know, could our brains do things that we didn't know they could do?

Kris Snyder

[0:29:55]

It's really fascinating stuff. It is no longer that, I would say. They've learned a lot about the process. But Alex Osborne was all about process.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:30:02]

You know, it was all about connecting with humans and going through a process that drove outcome.

Kris Snyder

[0:30:07]

Did you ever read Rick Rubin's Creative Act? I did, yeah.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:30:10]

Yeah, I thought that was really fascinating. It's a little esoteric and philosophical, but really good book.

Kris Snyder

[0:30:14]

But the linkage between process and creativity is what I thought was interesting, the way in which he did it. So that's where AI, I think, is interesting.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:30:22]

AI is a tool, right? It enhances your ability maybe to go deeper and explore ideas in a way that you hadn't before. Whether it will replace us or not, I'm not sure.

Christine Watts

[0:30:32]

Well, it's interesting even this conversation and the tie back to EOS, because we're talking about like processes and frameworks that can allow you to do more of the work or be more creative with what you're trying to do. And like that foundation, I feel like it's something that you're setting up for your clients right now.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:30:47]

It's really remarkable.

Christine Watts

[0:30:47]

So the tie in. Well, great. Thank you so much for being here.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:30:51]

My pleasure.

Christine Watts

[0:30:51]

If people want to get in contact with you, what's the best way to do that?

Kris Snyder

[0:30:53]

Well, email or text.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:30:55]

I mean, certainly email, jim.wardlaw at usworldwide.com or jimw at stitch.solutions. That's another way to reach me, but always happy to talk to folks.

Christine Watts

[0:31:04]

Great. Well, thank you again for coming. It was great having you.

Jim Wardlaw

[0:31:07]

My pleasure. Thanks so much for having me. Thanks, Jim. You bet.

Christine Watts

[0:31:15]

And that was Jim Wardlaw, what a fun conversation.

Kris Snyder

[0:31:19]

I loved his idea about your team is waiting for you to have the courage to bring the hard stuff to the table so they can help you.

Christine Watts

[0:31:26]

That one's really gonna stick with me. And I also really liked the resources that Jim shared. They were really outside of the norm, business building, business books that we hear about, and all of those ideas about imagination and creativity really help expand perspective and help you think about problems in a new way.

Kris Snyder

[0:31:44]

So if you do wanna connect with Jim, you can reach him at jim.wardlaw at eosworldwide.com. And if this episode gave you something to think about, I hope that you like and subscribe so you don't miss the next one. And of course, share it with someone on your leadership team that might need to hear it.

Christine Watts

[0:32:01]

We'll see you next time.