Strong Opinions Loosely Held

Cole Abbott

[0:00:00]

Strong opinions loosely held is something a lot of people talk about.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:06]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:00:06]

As a, as a good way to hold opinions and think about things. And especially for people of high conviction.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:15]

Yep.

Cole Abbott

[0:00:16]

Right. That seems to be the more evolved way of thinking. But there's a lot that goes into that. Right. You could say that all you want.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:24]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:00:25]

But having those strong opinions, which you should in the ideal way, those are earned opinions.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:31]

Right?

Cole Abbott

[0:00:31]

It's earned wisdom.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:32]

Yes.

Cole Abbott

[0:00:33]

And then having the mental frameworks to be able to adapt those things over time.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:41]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:00:42]

Is really tricky.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:44]

Yes.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:45]

Well, it's, it's. I don't know if it's tricky.

Cole Abbott

[0:00:47]

It's, it's not as simple as you just say that. You're like, oh, yeah, no, I'll just go have a strong opinion about everything and then change it all the time. It's like, well, that doesn't work.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:55]

It's a, it's, it's, it's indicative of your development.

Cole Abbott

[0:01:00]

Yes. So going down that road of development.

Mark Abbott

[0:01:05]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:01:06]

Right. Let's start on the earlier side of things. So earlier. Right. On the early side of things we have someone who could be described as loud but unthinking.

Mark Abbott

[0:01:19]

Yes.

Cole Abbott

[0:01:19]

Do you want to dive into that?

Mark Abbott

[0:01:25]

So earlier stages of ego development. Loud and unthinking is sort of the classic I want it my way, please, please, please, please, please, please, or whatever you want to say. But it's very self oriented. It's very insecure, it's very defensive.

Cole Abbott

[0:01:55]

It's more emotional.

Mark Abbott

[0:01:56]

It's more emotional and it's comes out of the insecurity associated with. Deep down inside you are unmoored. You don't know why you think the things that you do. You just know that you're emotionally triggered and you're reacting to the trigger.

Cole Abbott

[0:02:24]

You see the things that should update your worldview as threats.

Mark Abbott

[0:02:30]

Yes.

Cole Abbott

[0:02:31]

Rather than opportunities to correct.

Mark Abbott

[0:02:33]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:02:34]

Your way of thinking.

Mark Abbott

[0:02:35]

Yes.

Mark Abbott

[0:02:35]

You're closed off from being open to growth. You're closed off to being open to changing your perspective. You're closed off to being open to questioning the things that you know, you believe in.

Cole Abbott

[0:02:56]

So what does that. Right. As a leader, what would that look like? Because I'm sure a lot of people have had a boss or someone they work with that falls into this category.

Mark Abbott

[0:03:05]

Well, I have a famous lot. A famous little story is probably. Hopefully people will get it. But I had a boss like that when I first got out of school. And I'm going to use the term it. Right. That boss was asked about. It was in the banking world and that Boss was asked about a particular account on a balance sheet called treasury stock. And her response was, you know, treasury stock. That was her only answer. She didn't even know what it was. And.

Cole Abbott

[0:03:46]

And not in the ironic. Well, you know, treasury stock. Like, she probably know this kind of thing.

Mark Abbott

[0:03:50]

Hu. Yeah. So it's just, you know, it's just silly. But that's an example, obviously. Other examples are just someone throwing a tantrum. You know, it's got to be this way, and it's my way or the highway. And they're not even like, willing to engage in a conversation about, you know, why they could be wrong. Because if they're wrong, then all of a sudden, right. They fall apart and they can't deal with it and so there's just no listening.

Cole Abbott

[0:04:24]

Right. And the tantrum. I'm sure I'm not doing this 100% psychologically accurately.

Mark Abbott

[0:04:29]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:04:29]

But the tantrum is basically part of the ego fighting against that thing that is trying to update the worldview.

Mark Abbott

[0:04:36]

That's right, yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:04:37]

So why that's a thing? Right. It's not just like, oh, that person is difficult. It's like, well, no, something, something. There's a tension happen. There's a battle. Yeah, there's a. Whatever. There's a South park episode where Cartman's trying to like, he's trying to be a. His mom's trying to get him to be a better kid. Yeah. And then he's like, oh, she's pushing me too hard. And he goes and. And tries to kill her.

Mark Abbott

[0:05:01]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:05:02]

And then he's just. Part of his soul is trying to escape because it's like conflict. He's like, I can't do this. Like, no, you have to do it. It's. It's like he's like having a tantrum, throwing up on the floor. And that's him trying to get that part of himself out of himself.

Mark Abbott

[0:05:14]

That's. That's fun.

Cole Abbott

[0:05:15]

So.

Mark Abbott

[0:05:16]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:05:17]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:05:18]

Weird story, but funny.

Mark Abbott

[0:05:20]

Yeah, yeah. And. And you can look at this through the lens of, okay, self awareness or others awareness. Right. Which is, let's say you're managing someone who throws a tantrum and doesn't want to just open up. Right. And now the question is, you know, do they. As I like to say, I'm not a magician. I can't get help. People get what they want. Now the question is, you know, can you find a quieter time to engage in? Do you, you know, do you want to evolve? Do you want to be sort of become, you know, a better version of Yourself and sort of help them understand that maybe there is some opportunity for growth here and it'll be good for you.

Cole Abbott

[0:06:02]

Yeah, yeah. And you could start by picking out something. Right. You'd want to break down the wall, the barrier there.

Mark Abbott

[0:06:10]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:06:10]

Find something that the individual is less personally attached to.

Mark Abbott

[0:06:14]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:06:14]

Right. Take their opinion on something a little bit more periphery and then let's get that evolving a little bit. And then from there you can write, move those things closer and closer to the actual core issue with that individual.

Mark Abbott

[0:06:27]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:06:28]

Assuming that you have a lot of time to do this.

Mark Abbott

[0:06:31]

Exactly. That's a whole nother conversation.

Cole Abbott

[0:06:32]

Right. And then so it's. It is. And I think that that's valuable in terms of there are going to be people in your lives, personally and professionally that you have a responsibility of caring for.

Mark Abbott

[0:06:40]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:06:40]

In an ad situation, that's really useful. But then when it comes back to yourself. Right. You are responsible for caring for yourself. Right. You should treat yourself as though as someone you are responsible for caring for.

Mark Abbott

[0:06:53]

Right back to our seven relationships. One of the most important relationship, if not the most important relationship, is your relationship with yourself.

Cole Abbott

[0:06:59]

So going back to that and trying to care for yourself, if you find yourself bothered in these situations and you want to move past that, you want to grow because, well, you want to be better, gonna be less of a burden on others or you want to be a better leader. Right, Right. Or you want.

Mark Abbott

[0:07:15]

Even want to be considered for a leadership position.

Cole Abbott

[0:07:19]

Yes. Because if you're here, probably you're not there yet. Right. You got some room to grow.

Mark Abbott

[0:07:25]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:07:25]

So what would your advice be to somebody who is looking to grow from this stage?

Mark Abbott

[0:07:30]

Well, I think. I think. Well, they are looking to grow.

Cole Abbott

[0:07:39]

Yes.

Mark Abbott

[0:07:39]

So that's.

Cole Abbott

[0:07:40]

They claim they're looking to grow.

Mark Abbott

[0:07:41]

Right. So, you know, so then.

Cole Abbott

[0:07:44]

And this is going to be a. Right. This is a one to one conversation here.

Mark Abbott

[0:07:47]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:07:47]

So there's no. If they're really safe space in terms.

Mark Abbott

[0:07:50]

Of if they're really looking to grow, you know, I would have them look into understanding lovingers or someone else's gartner cooks, you know, sort of stages of ego development and help them understand, you know, why this is important. If they want to advance, if they want to be able to work with other people, if they want to sort of, you know, have a better relationship with themselves and others. Right. This will actually be a really good thing. And then of course, you know, we could. If, you know, it depends upon why they want to do these things. If they want to do these things because they want to become a leader if they do want to do these things because they just want to have a better relationship with themselves. They want to have a better relationship with other people. I mean, this stuff obviously is not just about the workplace. It's about, you know, their journey in life. And so hopefully you done a decent enough job where they're willing to listen to you and start to lean into. Okay, maybe I'll take advantage of the advice you're giving me. And then we can, as they've. Over time. Right. We can help them understand the bigger picture in terms of leadership and, you know, other aspects of what we're calling the integral growth theory so that they can appreciate why all this makes sense.

Cole Abbott

[0:09:08]

I think that the short of, I would say the short of that is observe things. Don't try to impose your will on things as much.

Mark Abbott

[0:09:14]

Yeah, right.

Cole Abbott

[0:09:15]

Understand if you do find yourself in those conflicts, it's time to just sit back, observe, try to do that with less and less personal perspective on the matter.

Mark Abbott

[0:09:24]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:09:24]

And then you'll start to see things that are more universally true than others and you could start working down those paths.

Mark Abbott

[0:09:31]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:09:32]

But when. Right. When somebody is that and you are, you do find yourself super confident because you have a reason for being confident in that, then lean in there. But if. Don't defend the things that you don't have a stake in.

Mark Abbott

[0:09:43]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:09:43]

Right. You're not going to win that battle. Um, so then moving on to the next.

Mark Abbott

[0:09:47]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:09:48]

Side of things. Right. The defensive contrarian, which we've kind of touched on already, where you challenges his threats and reacting reflexively.

Mark Abbott

[0:09:56]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:09:58]

You tend to get a little bit more authoritarian here.

Mark Abbott

[0:10:01]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:10:02]

You have anything to add? It's. Right. It's a proximal stage of things.

Mark Abbott

[0:10:10]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:10:10]

I think the, the pro, the proximal advancement is that you're moving from being all about yourself just now starting to care about the group and the group's opinions. And you know, you sort of have, you're moving into that conformist stage now where it's really important for you to belong and you. And you're going through conflict with regard to wanting to be right, wanting to be powerful and also wanting to belong. And so sometimes you can either over index on sort of be fighting being the leader of the group or fighting with not wanting to upset the group. So the authoritarian side is. Right. I'm in the group, I love the group, I want to dominate the group from my relatively unevolved perspective. And the conformist is just, you know, I don't want to upset the group at all. And I just want everybody to be happy. Right. And. And I, and I don't want people to challenge our group's worldview because that's what makes us all love each other. Does that make sense?

Cole Abbott

[0:11:29]

Yeah, I think to take it back to a storytelling thing. Right. If you look at any movie or book or TV show where there's a bad king.

Mark Abbott

[0:11:40]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:11:40]

Right. The. The bipolar dysfunction of the king is the tyrant and the weakling.

Mark Abbott

[0:11:44]

Yep.

Cole Abbott

[0:11:45]

Right. And that's the bad king is both of those. It is. Since the king is weak, he becomes a tyrant because he tries to impose that weakness and, and sort of shelter himself from all those things. Right, right. And it's like, look, I have power for the sake of power. And it's like, no, you're you, you have power. Your power is supposed to be in the form of capability and competency. So you can go help people and serve others and be a steward of the kingdom, not so that you can impose your will on things.

Mark Abbott

[0:12:10]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:12:11]

So I.

Mark Abbott

[0:12:12]

Because people aren't going to. If you're not confident in doing what's bet what's for the betterment of the society. Right. People aren't going to follow you.

Cole Abbott

[0:12:20]

Yeah. And in the ideal world.

Mark Abbott

[0:12:22]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:12:22]

The most. The king should be the most competent person for doing that job in the kingdom.

Mark Abbott

[0:12:26]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:12:27]

That's a big hierarchy. Right. So. But if you find yourself in a situation where you're feeling weak and you need to hit things.

Mark Abbott

[0:12:36]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:12:36]

You need to be your will into things like that. Right. Don't be that king.

Mark Abbott

[0:12:43]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:12:44]

Don't be. What's, what's the kid from Game. Game of Thrones. Oh, the kid King Joffrey. Is that it?

Mark Abbott

[0:12:51]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:12:52]

Don't be, don't be him.

Mark Abbott

[0:12:52]

Don't be Joffrey.

Cole Abbott

[0:12:53]

Don't be Joffrey. So. Yeah. Right. And when in I, I feel like most people would probably think that being more of a conformist would proceed the tyrant. They probably say, oh, it's what's softer. Right. So that you should be getting more.

Mark Abbott

[0:13:11]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:13:12]

And more strong willed as you develop. It's like, well, no, you, you have these, this thing in you. Especially if you are. If you found yourself in a position where you're a founder or CEO, you're probably pretty disagreeable.

Mark Abbott

[0:13:24]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:13:24]

And a hard J. Myers Briggs.

Mark Abbott

[0:13:28]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:13:28]

And so it's like you're gonna be, you know, when you're young, you're going to be judging things. You'll be disagreeing with people for the sake of it you're going to be a little bit argumentative and that's going to be a good thing for you later on as long as you continue to develop.

Mark Abbott

[0:13:40]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:13:40]

I think the, the thing that's really cool about these conversations. Right. And really understanding sort of the stages that people developmentally go through is that depending upon the personality. Right. Each stage you will, you'll test. Right. The outer edges. Now some will like, like whoa, whoa. And go test them really hard. And some will be testing them much more softly. Right. But you are going to. The pendulum is going to swing during the stage so that you can experience the things that will help inform you developmentally. So at each one of these stages of development, you are going to sort of have the, the tyrant moment a little bit.

Cole Abbott

[0:14:24]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:14:24]

Right. You're going to have the weakling moment a little bit. You're going to be afraid of, you know, of losing your tribe, you know, at the, at the, you know, conformist stage. So, you know, it's, it's just part of the, it's why we go through the stages that we do developmentally and.

Cole Abbott

[0:14:43]

All these stages and all these things you have to explore. Like our territories, basically.

Mark Abbott

[0:14:47]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:14:48]

Within your mind.

Mark Abbott

[0:14:49]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:14:49]

And a lot of some of those territories.

Mark Abbott

[0:14:51]

Territories in your mind too. The relationship territories. Right, Right. Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:14:55]

But it's the mind, it interacts with those things and you have to reconcile that within.

Mark Abbott

[0:14:58]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:14:59]

So I, and I. And what I'm trying to say is that you have all these territories and there can be some things that you would rather explore than others. And some of them are going to be really frightening for you.

Mark Abbott

[0:15:07]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:15:08]

And those ones that you have to be.

Mark Abbott

[0:15:10]

It's.

Cole Abbott

[0:15:11]

It's a part of the journey and you get lost there and you could just spend your life on the edge of that scary territory. That's not going to do you any favors. That's not going to do anyone that you're around any favors either.

Mark Abbott

[0:15:21]

Well, what percentage of the population across the globe stands tends to stay in the conformist stage? It's pretty significant.

Cole Abbott

[0:15:29]

60%.

Mark Abbott

[0:15:31]

It's. It depends on who's research, but it's 50. 60%.

Mark Abbott

[0:15:34]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:15:36]

So.

Mark Abbott

[0:15:36]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:15:38]

And Right. At some point you're going to sort of taper off on these stages, right? Most. Most 99.99 of people don't progress all the way. Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:15:48]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:15:49]

Which is. And that's not.

Mark Abbott

[0:15:51]

It just is what.

Cole Abbott

[0:15:52]

That is what it is.

Mark Abbott

[0:15:52]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:15:53]

That's human nature. You can't fight human nature. Right. But it is interesting. Right. You should want to Continue to develop and, and do that for the sake of everything. Right. But, but most people just understand the. How that your role within that work.

Mark Abbott

[0:16:09]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:16:09]

You could advance through all these things and doesn't mean anyone else is going to change. Right, right. And the ideal world is like, well, you start acting a certain way, you start shining a light on certain things.

Mark Abbott

[0:16:16]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:16:17]

Identifying and resolving certain issues, and then that has little ripple effects. But that's all it is. It's just, you're shining a light and it's going to have a little bit of an echo to it. But.

Mark Abbott

[0:16:27]

And, you know, and it, you know, gets back to, you know, when we talk about, you know, levels of, of competency in terms of an organization. Right. We got to remember, you know, plus or minus 13% of the, you know, just cannot hold a job. And then another 40% of the population is really just genuinely happy getting a paycheck on Friday and spending it, you know, over the next two weeks and then getting a paycheck on Friday and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And, and they're happy. Right. They, you know, they've got their family, they've got, they've got their interests, and, and it's all good for them. So there's, you know, we, you can say that everybody should, you know, be wanting to sort of navigate the nine stages of, you know, development if you want to use Loevinger's model. But we should also just recognize that a lot of people, this is good for them. It's okay.

Cole Abbott

[0:17:19]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:17:20]

I don't want to say no judgment because obviously it's not for me. But. Or you. Right, but, but, but it's cool.

Cole Abbott

[0:17:27]

Well, I was saying that more to. If you do find yourself in this thing, and then if you, I mean, if you get to, like, you're four and you keep progressing, and then you're like, well, you're going to find yourself in a weird situation where you're going to be surrounded with a bunch of people that aren't on that same journey as you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fine.

Mark Abbott

[0:17:46]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:17:47]

Right. It's just like you. You don't lead because you want to have power over people. You lead because you want to serve.

Mark Abbott

[0:17:54]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:17:55]

And it's a different version of we don't make money because we want to make money. We make money because people value what it is we do.

Cole Abbott

[0:18:01]

Yeah. There's a Henry Ford quote about that that I forget, but it's really good.

Mark Abbott

[0:18:05]

Okay.

Cole Abbott

[0:18:06]

About, about your business is just service, right? Yeah. All it is is serving others.

Mark Abbott

[0:18:10]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:18:10]

And if you're not doing that, then I, I, yeah, I wish that I had that written down right now. So moving on from conformist.

Mark Abbott

[0:18:19]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:18:19]

To you sort of gotten to that point where you take a step back, you're observing, you're trying to belong.

Mark Abbott

[0:18:25]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:18:25]

You're trying to get into that group. And then now you're starting to develop a little bit more. You're carrying on that momentum and you're getting a little bit of that informed rigidity back. So it would cause. Rigid but responsible. So you have more deeply held beliefs.

Mark Abbott

[0:18:39]

You're now starting to think for yourself and you're questioning some of the things that your tribe, for lack of a better term. Right. Buys into. And so your worldview is no longer just the tribal worldview. It's like, hey, you know, maybe I don't necessarily agree that, you know, every single person in the other political party is a evil, you know, human for just to simplify it.

Cole Abbott

[0:19:07]

Yeah. And you can mistake conviction for wisdom, which comes back to that Carl Jung quote, beware of unearned wisdom.

Mark Abbott

[0:19:15]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:19:15]

Which I think is huge.

Mark Abbott

[0:19:18]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:19:18]

Right. So it's great. Use that. But. Right. That's where it's like, that's not even a strongly held opinion. That's just a thing that's a little bit of a guide.

Mark Abbott

[0:19:25]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:19:26]

And you hold that loosely because you don't know. You got to go test these things out. And so you, you start to create things that are a little bit more controlled, a little more structured, but you can risk stagnation.

Mark Abbott

[0:19:40]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:19:41]

So what would at this level, what does that look like in the workplace? What does that look like as a leader?

Mark Abbott

[0:19:46]

Well, I, I think I've referred to this before. I think sort of the stage we're talking about right now is kind of like purgatory. Right. Because you're just now beginning to form your own opinions, but you're now, you're still very much attached to your, to your group. And so there's the emotional conflict between what you think and wanting to belong. Right. And so for some stage, you know, this stage is, is really hard. And you know, it could be a stage where all of a sudden you are kind of enabling, you know, others in that you know, better, but you don't want to upset their apple cart had been afford. But whatever. Right. And, and so you're kind of just stuck with sitting in this, like this weird place where you're not, you're not letting go of some of the emotional attachments so that you can Move your way into the next stage. And. And so I think stage five is a really. Like I said, it's purgatory. Right. Because you do see the world a bit differently, but you're not willing to release the relationships that matter to you.

Cole Abbott

[0:21:26]

And you're. You're at this point. Right. If you're listening to this and. Or you are aware of the levels, then this doesn't really apply to you. But if you. Right. We're five and six. We're getting up to the point where you're just. Before you become aware of these stages.

Mark Abbott

[0:21:41]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:21:42]

Become aware of the journey. This is just how things are. And you're not able to unless someone.

Mark Abbott

[0:21:47]

Unless someone's introduced it to you. Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:21:49]

Someone's made you consciously aware of this.

Mark Abbott

[0:21:52]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:21:52]

Right. But when we get further down the line, you can look back at your own journey. You're like, oh, right. And you start to understand that that was all part of the journey. Like, oh, I was just an idiot 2 years ago kind of a thing.

Mark Abbott

[0:22:02]

And it's like, why didn't anybody help me understand this when I was at stage four or stage five? It's like, oh, come on, man. It's like what. It's. Part of what we're doing, right. With the company is we're trying to help people understand where they are developmentally, where companies are developmentally. Because part of me is like, you know, it's not that complicated, but we don't teach this stuff really well, in my opinion, in college, and I don't even know if we teach it well in business school. I never went to business school, so what do I know? Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:22:28]

So I didn't go to business school. I doubt this is talked about a business school because people that come out of business school tend to be a little bit more rigid on things. Right?

Mark Abbott

[0:22:35]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:22:35]

So, yeah, I think that profession, personally, you just sort of intuitively understand, oh, you're on journey, you're learning, you're getting better every day. Great. Cool. But the business side, as you as that becomes really socialized, that's a lot more difficult because, like, well, this worked. And you're much more risk of averse within the. Within a business.

Mark Abbott

[0:22:55]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:22:55]

Well, this has been working for a while and we've grown. Like, why isn't this working? Yeah, we had a growth ceiling and it's like, what's going on?

Mark Abbott

[0:23:01]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:23:02]

And it's like, oh, so you gotta understand where your business is in the journey.

Mark Abbott

[0:23:05]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:23:06]

You also need to understand where the people are in the business in their Own respective journeys.

Mark Abbott

[0:23:10]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:23:10]

And all of these things have to be working as one cohesive organic system.

Mark Abbott

[0:23:16]

Yeah. Because both developmentally as an individual and developmentally as a company, you gotta go through these stages. Right. And so, you know, I always. We talk about thinkers, feelers, doers and critics. Another way of looking at these things is I like Lexiconi's. There's stabilizers. So critics are stabilizers, basically. Right. So you do need to create stability at each stage to step off that step. Right. You need to have stability now. So their stability is important. So we need to go through these phases where we create stability, because without that stability, we can't take a strong step up to the next stage.

Cole Abbott

[0:23:58]

Yeah. And you gotta have that solid foundation to jump off of. Yeah, right. It's like if you. So I think if you relate it back to a hero's journey. Yeah, right. It's like, well, you start where you're comfortable. Right. You start in the normal world. Right. The real world, whatever you call it. Right. And then you enter the unknown and. Right. You. You face challenges and. And you. You kind of get broken down a little bit in that journey.

Mark Abbott

[0:24:20]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:24:20]

And you go through a lot of things, whatever. And then you come out the other side integrating the things that you learned. But it's not. You don't just spend the whole time in the unknown.

Mark Abbott

[0:24:30]

Right, right.

Cole Abbott

[0:24:31]

You don't. The hero's journey is not just you go from the normal world back to. Into the unknown, and then you just grow there forever. It's like. Well, no, you have to return to the. Where you started from. Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:24:43]

And apply the things that you've learned.

Cole Abbott

[0:24:44]

Integrate those lessons and then return back to homeostasis, stability, whatever. Right. And then you can begin another journey.

Mark Abbott

[0:24:52]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:24:52]

But if you don't do that, you're just. You're. You're gonna break down and it's just end up in purgatory.

Mark Abbott

[0:24:58]

Yeah. It's a. It's a forever cycle of, you know, just. I almost called chaos, but it's, it's. It's.

Cole Abbott

[0:25:03]

There's. That is. It is.

Mark Abbott

[0:25:05]

Right. You know, and there's. And there's no rejuvenation. Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:25:09]

It's like the pendulum.

Mark Abbott

[0:25:10]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:25:11]

There's a pendulum thing. And. Well, if a dependent just stays over here, that's not very good.

Mark Abbott

[0:25:14]

Right, right.

Cole Abbott

[0:25:15]

It's got a return.

Mark Abbott

[0:25:16]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:25:16]

And you're going to find yourself and it probably. It's going to look like. Right. This is lower stages, this is higher stages. It's going to go wider at first and Start to slow down as that string gets smaller and Right. As you did, you just go to more incremental refinements on your built up, bottom up worldview.

Mark Abbott

[0:25:37]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:25:39]

So now getting into where the, the aware stages.

Mark Abbott

[0:25:44]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:25:45]

Right. We into. Into seven and. And so forth.

Mark Abbott

[0:25:48]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:25:48]

Right. You're open minded, but you're still a little bit unanchored.

Mark Abbott

[0:25:53]

Mm.

Cole Abbott

[0:25:54]

And you start to see the bigger picture, but you're struggling to commit to it.

Mark Abbott

[0:25:58]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:25:58]

Because it's like a Dunning Kruger kind of thing. The more you know, the more you realize you don't know.

Mark Abbott

[0:26:05]

Yep.

Cole Abbott

[0:26:06]

So again, getting into that sort of thing is a good analogy.

Mark Abbott

[0:26:11]

So.

Cole Abbott

[0:26:11]

Yeah. Level seven.

Mark Abbott

[0:26:14]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:26:16]

And you know, at, at seven we, you know, back to the original thing where strong, strong opinions weakly held. Right. At seven. Now we're, we're really trying to chip away at the parts of our worldview that are still underdeveloped. Does that make sense? So that's the cool thing. Right. It's. Now you're starting. You have these foundations for understanding why you think the way you think, what works, what doesn't work. So strong opinions weekly held. But you, but, but you know, but you're still, you still haven't gotten to where like on, on 10, you're pretty. Not on stage nine at the top. Right. We're pretty much. We understand why we think the way we do. We're at peace with it. We understand. We don't understand everything, but we understand things well enough to have a coherent, explicit, resonant. Unemotionally, I would say trans.

Cole Abbott

[0:27:35]

Rational at that point. Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:27:36]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:27:37]

We move from emotional to rational.

Mark Abbott

[0:27:40]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:27:40]

And most people, it's like they get stuck around the transition between emotional and rational. Which is interesting. Yeah, I really thought about it that way, but. Right. It's like three and four kind of a thing. And then once you move what like seven, probably seven. Right. You're moving into the trans. Rational state of things where you're like, oh yes, you, you get it logically. But there are also some things that you need your emotions and your subconscious to inform how you can make something explicit moving forward. Right. Helping you identify what those things you stop to work through are.

Mark Abbott

[0:28:15]

And, and being able to, you know, I, and I don't. I should, you know, this is an area where I'm slightly out of my depth of understanding.

Cole Abbott

[0:28:25]

I feel like this whole episode is flirting with that edge.

Mark Abbott

[0:28:27]

Yeah, but. Right. But I always think that emotions are just signals from your subconscious. Right. Yeah. And where you can't quite articulate it. But Something's going on. Right. And so when you're. When you're in seven, I think you're starting to better identify what the emotions are trying to signal. Right. And so back to working on the edges of what you understand and what you don't understand. Right. And you got more and more things that it's not necessarily understanding. It's more. Your worldview is more fully developed, but it's still got edges that are, you know, not completely developed. And so there's some stuff out there that you're just. You're still working on. And so in seven, right? The motions, transrational. Right. Okay. These are the things I'm working on. Back to strong opinions, weekly held. And it's like, okay, I feel pretty confident that I have the right answer here, but maybe there is something I'm still missing because emotionally, I'm like something unsettling there.

Mark Abbott

[0:29:45]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:29:48]

So when it comes to leadership, right, what does it look like? This is probably most leaders out. Most CEOs, I think, yeah. Are around level seven.

Mark Abbott

[0:30:07]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:30:08]

Well, I, you know, I think. I don't want to get in trouble here. Right. But I think, I think the whole ESG DEI stuff, right, that's because they. I think that's where a lot of leaders were, like, struggling. So, yeah, I want to be. I want to do the right thing. I understand. You know, you know, you can appreciate.

Cole Abbott

[0:30:31]

Diversity behind it, right?

Mark Abbott

[0:30:33]

I appreciate diversity. I'm not being. When it comes to equity, and especially in a commercial enterprise where competency matters. Right. I understand the big idea behind equity, but I also know that, no, not everybody is equal and has the same pay and has the same level of drive and has the same level of competency. And so, you know, there's.

Cole Abbott

[0:31:00]

You're wrestling with.

Mark Abbott

[0:31:02]

You're wrestling with that. And, and then in inclusion, right? It's like, yeah, we want to be inclusive, but we can't include everybody because there are people out there that actually are not good cultural fits. Right. And I think we have very smart people running Fortune 500 companies that struggled with what DEI really was. If you really want to be really firm about each of the words.

Cole Abbott

[0:31:33]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:31:33]

And, you know, culture eats strategy for breakfast. And so. And competencies are real. And there are hierarchies of competency. Right. And no, we don't want to have a newborn baby, be the CEO of a company. I mean, it's absurd when you take it to its edges. Right. And so I think this is a really good example of. Of the tension that existed. You Know, and it's, you know, obviously this pendulum swinging back on this stuff now, and I think people are starting to get more trans rational about this topic.

Cole Abbott

[0:32:09]

And you still have other people that are just. Right. It's like, oh, that's not as big of a cultural push anymore, so just get rid of it.

Mark Abbott

[0:32:16]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:32:16]

It's like, okay, well, yeah, right. Those are probably less developed people where it's like, oh, we needed this, let's do it. Oh, we don't need this, let's not do it.

Mark Abbott

[0:32:23]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:32:23]

There's not a lot of thought going into there.

Mark Abbott

[0:32:25]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:32:26]

Uncomfortable.

Mark Abbott

[0:32:27]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:32:27]

Dialogue in their heads.

Mark Abbott

[0:32:28]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:32:29]

Right. Like, oh, what's like weighing the points. Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:32:31]

And why did, why did the conversation begin? Right. Yeah, because it, because there's a reason the conversation took place and it's a.

Cole Abbott

[0:32:39]

Good conversation, but real issues that it intended to solve.

Mark Abbott

[0:32:43]

Yes.

Cole Abbott

[0:32:44]

Immaturely, you could say, yeah, you could do a whole episode on taking those things and then running it through the framework. Why did this happen? And then what's to solve? Right. And it's something we've been talking about for a long time.

Mark Abbott

[0:32:58]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:33:01]

So, Right. That's been. Right. Most I, I, I, what percentage. This is just completely guess kind of a thing, but what percentage of both general CEOs in the United States and in Fortune 500 CEOs would fall into this bucket?

Mark Abbott

[0:33:22]

It's a great question. I think, I think I don't know the answer, but my instincts are that the newer generation of leadership. So less 10 years. Right. Of CEOs and founders who have built some pretty impressive companies or are doing pretty darn well. I think that group of people, especially a lot of the names that we know are above seven. You know, I think there's a, there's a really interesting group of thought leaders that are coming out and you know, you listen to them on the podcasts and you know, whether it's the Andreessen's or Colson's or. There's just a lot of really interesting people out there that I think are really, you know, sort of, you know, seven eight nines. And the way model we like to use has five different categories. And so, but you know, they're seven eight nines. A lot of seven, eight nines. But, you know, and I want to be an ageist, but I, I think you, you go a generation back and, you know, you, you see a lot of sevens.

Cole Abbott

[0:34:47]

And I don't think it's ages to say that the older any individual gets, the more likely or any, any individual slice of population gets, the more likely they are to be further along in their development. But also any successive generation is going to hopefully learn from the preceding generations wisdom and be able to stand on their shoulders and, and advance through things more fluidly.

Mark Abbott

[0:35:14]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:35:15]

When you know, I deeply believe that.

Cole Abbott

[0:35:16]

Right, yeah. So that's, that's not a. That's just the nature of things rather.

Mark Abbott

[0:35:20]

Than nature of evolution.

Cole Abbott

[0:35:21]

Yeah, yeah. So you can't put right, that's not a dig on anyone or any generation. It's just like. Well, that's just the way of things.

Mark Abbott

[0:35:27]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:35:28]

And I think right now we're kind of devolving a little bit and I think it's more just a widening of like stratific of things where you have some people that are just pushing forward, really learning and then some people that are uncomfortable with the way things are and then trying to seek comfort.

Mark Abbott

[0:35:46]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:35:47]

Right. Comforting things, social media ideologies, all of that.

Mark Abbott

[0:35:52]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:35:53]

And so I think that's going to be an interesting. The next 10 years. Gonna be interesting in that arena.

Mark Abbott

[0:35:59]

Well, I mean this is kind of what Work 9.0 is all about. Right. Is to help people understand this stuff that we're talking about right now and, and, and see how. I deeply believe that the next generation of leaders on the current generation of leaders who just genuinely want to become better and better versions of themselves need to be more evolved, you know, in terms of self awareness and other awareness and you know, need to be sort of moving towards seven, eights and nines.

Cole Abbott

[0:36:37]

So moving on to eight.

Mark Abbott

[0:36:38]

Yep.

Cole Abbott

[0:36:39]

Right. Which is the. We're getting towards upper edge of where for practical purposes, where most people go to can get to audience wise and everything.

Mark Abbott

[0:36:50]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:36:52]

So now we're getting to more. And yet the autonomous side of things. Right. You're principled is a key word. Yes, principled. Not rigid.

Mark Abbott

[0:37:02]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:37:03]

But adaptive.

Mark Abbott

[0:37:04]

Yep.

Cole Abbott

[0:37:04]

So you're more rooted in core values. You're listening to feedback. You're learning to discern good feedback from bad feedback.

Mark Abbott

[0:37:10]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:37:10]

Because I, I think that's a huge part of this. Which probably gets back to level four or five.

Mark Abbott

[0:37:15]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:37:16]

Learning good feedback from five and six. Probably learning good feedback from bad feedback.

Mark Abbott

[0:37:21]

Yes.

Cole Abbott

[0:37:21]

Which is huge. When, when you're earlier on, it's like just listen to everything, like you're gonna just intake it all and it will sort itself out. Because if you just take in everything, it's like there's no way that you could just satisfact.

Mark Abbott

[0:37:31]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:37:32]

You're gonna have to shed some of that off. Yeah. So developmentally progression wise, that's huge. And then focusing more on long term things. Right. Less. It's like the, the line of humility isn't about thinking less of yourself, it's about thinking of yourself less.

Mark Abbott

[0:37:50]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:37:50]

Getting into that right now. So level eight.

Mark Abbott

[0:37:55]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:37:55]

What does that look like?

Mark Abbott

[0:37:57]

You know, Well, I think it back to the principles, you know, it's the. We were talking about. If, whether it's. It's a combination of sort of. You have, your worldview has. Is first principle based and then your guiding principles, you know, are sort of your why you do the things you do, why the company does the things it does. Being really super clear on this is who we are and these are the reasons we do the things that we do. And this is who we serve. Serve. And this is how we serve.

Cole Abbott

[0:38:31]

And there's a hierarchy there. Right. Simon Sinek talks about that golden circle. Why? How?

Mark Abbott

[0:38:35]

What? Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:38:36]

Like that's just a illustration of the hierarchy of principle, of motivation, of all that, all those things. Right. What stems from what. And having that in the proper order will allow you to, will enable you to develop more smoothly.

Mark Abbott

[0:38:51]

Yeah. And, and, and to make decisions more.

Cole Abbott

[0:38:54]

Confidently and share that with the company. Yes, well, right. Make that explicit within the organization.

Mark Abbott

[0:38:59]

Exactly. Explicit, coherent and resonant. Right. So you, you are, you've evolved to the place where you can explain, you know, back to strong opinions, weakly held or lightly held or strong opinions, you know, fairly strongly held. Right. Because there are opinions that are fairly strongly held as well.

Cole Abbott

[0:39:22]

And there's all of those opinions. Right. It's like a tree with branches. The branches can move more than the trunk can.

Mark Abbott

[0:39:28]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:39:28]

And the trunk is what supports the whole thing. If you don't have that support, the tree dies.

Mark Abbott

[0:39:31]

Right?

Mark Abbott

[0:39:32]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:39:32]

It falls.

Mark Abbott

[0:39:33]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:39:34]

So understanding that, yes, there's gonna be things that will redirect, but as you move up in the levels, your focus goes more from my observing. And then you might have to completely change trajectory on something in which you should allow, given the proper input to identifying the smaller pathologies and insufficiencies within your, within both your framework of things and also other things that you see happening.

Mark Abbott

[0:40:00]

Yes.

Mark Abbott

[0:40:00]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:40:00]

And you're going around fixing those things because for you that's, that's, those are the areas of unknown that you have to go experience and go help with. Right. That's what you have to serve.

Mark Abbott

[0:40:08]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:40:09]

And part of your serving is actually bringing up people behind you that can take the torch. Right. And they can also get to 7, 8, 9. And one of the Things we haven't talked about at all today is if you want to get really super pragmatic on this, and I think, you know, most people do really want to understand. The super pragmatic side of this is as you evolve, you become less and less subject to biases. Recency bias. Right. Recency bias. Group bias. Group thinking bias.

Cole Abbott

[0:40:41]

Personality bias.

Mark Abbott

[0:40:42]

Personality bias. There's, you know, there's a list of God knows how many. Right. I think we did. I wrote something about 50, 70 different biases.

Cole Abbott

[0:40:50]

And you don't need to be consciously aware of all these biases.

Mark Abbott

[0:40:52]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:40:52]

But you, as you advance, you will be able to recognize when one of those is influencing you.

Mark Abbott

[0:40:58]

Yes.

Mark Abbott

[0:40:59]

Or your people. Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:41:00]

And you'll be.

Mark Abbott

[0:41:01]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:41:01]

You'll also be able to recognize that in others.

Mark Abbott

[0:41:03]

Yes. Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:41:04]

And so, and obviously to, to, to be really, really good at leading. Right. Starting building, scaling, leading an organization. The, the, the better we are at identifying biases and sort of taking those off the table. Right. The more efficient the climb is.

Cole Abbott

[0:41:24]

You're moving to observing things without perspective.

Mark Abbott

[0:41:27]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:41:27]

Right. And the perspective is the bias.

Mark Abbott

[0:41:29]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:41:30]

And Right. You have to do that in order to help other people do that as well.

Mark Abbott

[0:41:33]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:41:33]

And so what your relation. Because you're, you're doing this all in relation to others. Right. And what your relationship looks like with those others at different levels changes.

Mark Abbott

[0:41:42]

Yes.

Cole Abbott

[0:41:42]

Right. Well, if you're really low, it's like, well, someone just thinks that you're some magical shaman type figure. If you're like a level nine. Right. We're level two. It's like, well, that's just. They're like magic and that's great. And then it becomes more of a. Than like a friend. Like, you just believe in them to a mentor, to a guru or a guru to mentor. Right. And then as you get closer, those, those relationships begin to change. But as you progress, you're more and more capable of helping.

Mark Abbott

[0:42:06]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:42:07]

It's an interesting conversation, which I, I've never, I don't think I've had it in my head. And we, I don't think we've had it. Right. But you know, at what stage are you actually sufficiently equipped to recognize that you can't turn a person of state who's at stage three into stage seven? I mean, just the whole. Right. It's impossible. They have to go through the stages. They have to have the steps. They have to have the stability of the step to step off of and up to the next step. Right. And so at some stage, you know, you recognize that you just can't, you know, you don't have the power, the ability to help someone move from stage four to stage seven. So if you have someone at stage three, I'll go even easier. Right. Stage three. And you want them to act like a stage six, be a stage six leader. And that's really important for that particular seat. You know, you're like, I can't do that. Doesn't work.

Cole Abbott

[0:43:11]

That's not fair to that person.

Mark Abbott

[0:43:12]

It's not fair to that person. It's.

Cole Abbott

[0:43:14]

It's not fair to the team. And I think, I think level seven, you start to have that quarrel. I think level eight, you start to recognize, hey, I can't do this.

Mark Abbott

[0:43:24]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:43:24]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:43:25]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:43:25]

I think it is somewhere between seven and eight where you, you, you, you, you. You become at peace with this. Right. And so. And you're not sitting here going, oh, man, you're beating yourself up because. Or you're trying to force something. It is what it is. And now you just have a, you know, and it's conversation, and you probably don't even use the words that, you know, you don't. You don't apply the. Because they won't understand. Right. So it's just like, hey, you know, it's just not a perfect fit here for what we need at this moment in time. And there's got to be, you know, I, you know, I'm sure whether it's here, maybe there's an opportunity in some other place within the organization where they're not in a leadership position as an example, or it's just like, hey, you know, where we are as a company developmentally and what we need. Right. You're just not the perfect fit for this seat at this particular moment in time in. With regard to our developmental journey as a company. That's hard. But you can't. Right. You're not a magician. You can't just all of a sudden wish someone from, you know, five to.

Cole Abbott

[0:44:33]

Seven, and if you try to skip, then you haven't built the foundation and you're going to find yourself tumbling back down.

Mark Abbott

[0:44:38]

Yeah. And you're just going to be carrying them on your back.

Cole Abbott

[0:44:40]

Yeah. So we're at time.

Mark Abbott

[0:44:43]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:44:44]

I write strong opinions. Loosely held.

Mark Abbott

[0:44:48]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:44:48]

Right. It's. The opinion is just. Right. It's. It's the, the principle, the value, the belief, and then the opinion. Right. So it's a result of those things. So, yes, the opinion is loosely held, but it's built on a strong foundation.

Mark Abbott

[0:45:06]

Yeah. And. And I think, you know, some people will have strong opinions early on, even at stage three. Right. And so, you know, as you work your way up, it's like, we're not, we don't want you to not have strong opinions.

Cole Abbott

[0:45:22]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:45:22]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:45:23]

Well, and voice those strong opinions.

Mark Abbott

[0:45:24]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:45:25]

But don't. Right. Understand that that's just, that opinion is just a gesture.

Mark Abbott

[0:45:29]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:45:30]

Right. If that's. And you could have a very wise leader is like, I appreciate that and I'm gonna go do something different.

Mark Abbott

[0:45:37]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:45:37]

But that, that, that communication is huge.

Mark Abbott

[0:45:39]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:45:39]

And so you should always be communicating these things.

Mark Abbott

[0:45:42]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:45:42]

And have the courage to do that. But don't have attachment to the outcome. Right, Right. Appreciate the journey. You're on the process of development, but don't have any attachment to whatever that outcome is. All right.

Mark Abbott

[0:45:57]

All right. Thank you.