Are You Building a Job or Building a Company?

Mark Abbott (01:23.712)

awesome.

There we go. Hello, Michael.

Michael E. Gerber (01:29.272)

Hello, how are you Mark?

Mark Abbott (01:31.54)

I'm doing really, really well and it's a pleasure to see you. How are you doing?

Michael E. Gerber (01:35.158)

A delight.

I'm doing great. I'm doing great.

Mark Abbott (01:40.916)

Well, we've been talking about doing this together now for months, but you and I have been friends now for, I want to say it feels like three, four, I don't want to go to five years, but it's been three or four years now, hasn't it?

Michael E. Gerber (02:01.688)

About three, about three, yep.

Mark Abbott (02:03.392)

About three. Yeah. And it's been a super pleasure to get to know you over the years. And one of the things that you've been just super gracious with me on is sort of helping me, you know, sort of think about things and see things. And you've always been great at reading my blogs and giving me some feedback. But one of the things I want to do before, you know, sort of set this whole thing up is

Michael E. Gerber (02:21.432)

Thank

Mark Abbott (02:33.972)

You know, I kind of assume that almost every entrepreneur has heard of Michael Gerber, you know? But, you know, my gut is the vast majority of them have, but not everyone has. And so, you know, I want to do a little setup, my sort of thinking of Michael Gerber and the story behind Michael Gerber. So I kind of do a setup of, my version of the origin story here.

but then I would love for you to, fill in, you know, either the blanks or correct me where I'm wrong. But.

Michael E. Gerber (03:11.32)

Well, you know I have no problem with that.

Mark Abbott (03:17.15)

Yeah, that's true. Yeah, no, that's that's always been true. At least that's always been my experience. So, you know, when I when I think of Mike Lee Gerber, I think of kind of the father of. Of you know what is now kind of referred to as the business operating systems industry, but the father of helping us really.

appreciate, especially us entrepreneurs, appreciate the concept that a business is a system and that a lot of entrepreneurs don't truly appreciate how important creating a business system is and that you are really one of the first, if not the first people to start

helping entrepreneurs understand that there's to create a business, you need a system and that needs that you need to sort of be the system creator and not just the doer of the work that, you know, is that the is that the core of every single business? I every single business is providing some service and or product that someone else sees of value. That's what the business is. That's how it makes money. But that

You identified very early on that a lot of entrepreneurs focus on the work and not on the building of the system that turns into a company. so am I plus or minus right that you kind of are the father of this industry?

Michael E. Gerber (05:01.272)

Well, I would say yes, because I've been here longer than anybody else, creating this thing that you've described. But I want to make one correction. And it's the correction that sits at the heart of the problem. And the heart of the problem isn't the business system.

Part of the problem is they're not entrepreneurs. And so when you speak about teaching entrepreneurs, most people say that more.

But they miss the point of it. And the point of it is, as you know, the E-Myth. And the E-Myth is the myth of the entrepreneur. And that the story resides at the heart of that problem. And so what happened at the very beginning of this thing,

I discovered nobody's an entrepreneur. Now, I don't mean nobody, but I'm rather dramatic in my emphasis. And I emphasize that because 90 % of all startups go out of business before their 10th year. Now, when I say that, Mark, think about that.

It's a tragedy.

Michael E. Gerber (06:50.678)

And when we think about a tragedy, one says that, so what is that tragedy? And so my work has been to awaken the entrepreneur within those I have been focusing my attention on, which I call the smallest of the small.

So your work is with the emerging organization. My work is with the smallest of the small. So that you have more to work with. Well, so that's the distinction.

Mark Abbott (07:32.862)

Yes, thank you for that.

Mark Abbott (07:40.072)

Yeah, and it's interesting, and you and I over the years have had some fun with words. You we could call that the name of the, we could certainly do a whole episode on fun with words, you know, Michael and Mark. But, and I know that your heart's always been with the smallest of the small. And to me, in some respects,

Mark Abbott (08:11.835)

It's with...

I think your mission, your passion has been around the entrepreneurs who haven't dreamed of not being the smallest of the small, who haven't dreamed of building something that goes much bigger than they themselves. Is that a fair?

Michael E. Gerber (08:42.456)

It is, it is. And when you say playing with words, the most important distinction that I would make, and I'm avid about this, I've devoted my life to this. And I've devoted my life to this because of the pain and suffering that I've encountered.

Mark Abbott (08:42.792)

observation.

Michael E. Gerber (09:11.956)

again and again, tens of thousands of times. And I see the tragedy because it's not just the guy, the woman who you're calling an entrepreneur. It's their whole family. It's their kids. It's their friends. It's everyone. You got it. And it's tragic.

Mark Abbott (09:16.394)

Yeah.

Mark Abbott (09:26.708)

Right.

Mark Abbott (09:33.541)

the employees, even the customers.

Mark Abbott (09:40.415)

Yes.

Michael E. Gerber (09:41.303)

Because it doesn't have to be that way. And you write about that every damn week. It's astonishing to me the abundance of intelligence that you bring to the street every week. Over and over and over a new subject.

Mark Abbott (09:43.753)

Yes.

Michael E. Gerber (10:09.209)

all about the same subject.

Mark Abbott (10:12.202)

Yes.

Michael E. Gerber (10:14.669)

And I'm simply saying that we live in actually two different worlds.

And I say that in no way to depreciate the world you live in, because I'm first honored to be here.

Mark Abbott (10:40.166)

I'm honored to have you here.

Michael E. Gerber (10:42.274)

but also moved by your intelligence.

Michael E. Gerber (10:49.28)

And I'm saying that your intelligence would be wasted on the people I work

Michael E. Gerber (10:58.966)

because they've got to start all over again. And so I have, in the past decade, not creating a revenue producing enterprise, but creating what I call the new E-Myth.

And creating the new E-myth means to design, build, launch, and grow a new paradigm that most effectively touches the minds, hearts, and souls of the smallest of the small. So everyone who says, I'm going to go out on my own, I want to be there when they say, I'm going to go out on my own.

And I'm there saying, stop stupid. Listen, because how you do what you're describing you're going to do is crucial if you hope to do it right.

Michael E. Gerber (12:11.53)

And so that's the distinction.

Mark Abbott (12:16.384)

Well, and let's go back into the origin story in a couple pieces of couple facts. E-Myth was published, the E-Myth, right? Your groundbreaking book was first published when?

Michael E. Gerber (12:23.842)

Good.

Michael E. Gerber (12:28.055)

Yes.

Michael E. Gerber (12:33.976)

1986.

Mark Abbott (12:36.16)

1986. And so how many copies now?

Michael E. Gerber (12:37.984)

Yep.

Well, you have to think about the emith and then its predecessor, the emith revisited. And then there's the emith manager. And then there's emith mastery, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I've now published 34 books.

Mark Abbott (12:57.173)

Yeah.

Mark Abbott (13:00.66)

Yeah, which is incredible. And how many millions have you sold now collectively?

Michael E. Gerber (13:05.432)

Over 8 million.

Mark Abbott (13:08.286)

Yeah. Yeah.

Michael E. Gerber (13:09.748)

And so it's been said, told to me by the people who do this thing, that my book is the seventh most successful business book ever published.

Mark Abbott (13:30.869)

Yep.

Michael E. Gerber (13:32.793)

Which is astonishing to me because when they say they mean every business book They don't mean a category of business books And it's astonishing when I say that because when you Think that then you got to ask the question, which is what I so what is it? That has made those books So profoundly successful

Michael E. Gerber (14:04.44)

And that lives at the heart of the question we're raising here.

Michael E. Gerber (14:14.658)

So just say.

Mark Abbott (14:16.414)

Yep. so number one, I want to get into what is it that makes that book. And I've done the research on this, by the way. I've researched because I would love to write a review of the top 250 books, business books of all time. So I've collected the sort of the list using several different

Mechanisms including, of course, are fun AI these days. But there's no question that, you know, that the E-Myth is one of the top 10 business books of all time. You know, from so many different perspectives, right? There's a, because I looked at it through the lens of how many have been sold, right? And when I did my list, how many books have been sold? How credible were they, right? How well they stood the test of time, right?

And I had like five different categories that I, that I asked, you know, in this case, chat GPT, how, you know, let's look at the, what, let's create a list. Let's look at it through the lens of credibility. Let's look at it, the durability, obviously number of, number of sales, reviews, et cetera, et cetera. And as I said, the emith was one of the top 10 for sure. If not, you know, top five. when you.

Mark Abbott (15:44.532)

When you think about a book and you think about the journey that an author takes in order to create a great book, there's always a really interesting story. There's an interesting story behind what I like to refer to as the concepts, the tools, and the disciplines that ultimately make the book compelling.

And then there's a story behind acquiring the concepts of tools and the disciplines, right? So book comes out in 86. When did you start on this journey towards creating the frameworks that are at the heart and soul of really the big idea that ultimately turns into a book?

Michael E. Gerber (16:37.866)

eight years before the Yeah, so I started my very first company in 1977. And that company was called the Michael Thomas Corporation. And I was Michael and he was Thomas. And that was formed based upon a realization

Mark Abbott (16:40.618)

So in the late 70s.

Michael E. Gerber (17:07.52)

that was at the profound center of all our work. The Michael Thomas Corporation is what in fact you called me the grandfather of. It really was at the heart of the first really business development firm on the planet. Not a consulting firm.

a business development firm built upon a model that nobody else had talked about. And that came about because of a remarkable experience I had. My brother-in-law, Ace Riemens, had an advertising agency in Silicon Valley.

I would describe why or how ACE created an advertising agency in Silicon Valley, but I had a great deal to do with that. ACE came to me and he said, Michael, I got a problem. I create leads for our clients and they have a monstrous problem converting them into sales.

Would you meet with one of my clients and figure out what the problem is? I said, Ace, having a clue, I don't know anything about this. And he said, Michael, you know more than you think you do. Just do me a favor and let's meet with Bob. I'm calling him Bob. I don't remember his name. And let's see what happens. So I am always motivated by let's see what happens.

Mark Abbott (18:49.438)

Yeah.

Michael E. Gerber (19:00.932)

And so we went to meet Pab. And Ace immediately says, guys, I'm going to take off for an hour.

Mark Abbott (19:09.952)

You

Michael E. Gerber (19:11.192)

get to know each other and let's see what happens. So Bob asked me naturally, so Michael, what do you know about my business? And I said, nothing, Bob. I didn't. And he said, well, if you don't know anything about me, what do you know about my product? And I said, less than that,

So I go, if you don't know anything about my business, you don't know anything about, how can you help me? I said, have no clue, but Ace thinks I can. He's gone. So let's get to know each other and let's see what happens. So I just started asking Bob questions. And this is where it happened.

I thought I didn't know anything about Bob's business. What was astonishing to me is that Bob didn't either.

And every question I asked him, he gave me an anecdotal answer.

And finally, I asked him, do you have a selling system? And he said, what's that?

Mark Abbott (20:26.175)

Right.

Michael E. Gerber (20:27.84)

And that's where it happened. said, Bob, a selling system is what you provide your salespeople, every single one of them doing it every single way the same time for exactly the same reason to produce exactly the same result. Said, holy shit, I'd never thought of that. I hire people who are experienced salespeople.

who know the technology, and I figure they know how to do what they need to do. I said, Bob, that's your biggest problem.

He said, well, can you create a cell? says, well, I said, sure, My obvious confidence, my idiot confidence. And he said, well, why don't you do that for me? So Ace picks me up. said, well, I said, Bob, just hire me. Hire you to do what?

to create a selling system for him. He said, how could you do that? You don't know anything about his business. You don't know anything. I said, Ace, told you that before we came here. And I said, I can do that. And then I did do that, Mark. But it became so obvious to me that in fact, every single one of Ace's clients had the same problem.

So then I did it with client number two, number three, different products, furniture, shoes. You get my point. But the process ended up being identically the same. But then there was a continuous problem. So what's the problem? And that's when it really took shape.

Michael E. Gerber (22:29.048)

Because on the way between one client and another client, I was doing it face to face. I went into McDonald's to get a nourishment. And then I thought, holy shit, excuse the expression. It never struck me. I saw it.

I immediately saw it. I stepped out of McDonald's. I looked at McDonald's. I said, my God, that's it. And that's when the whole story took shape and form. And that's what led to now, today, what I call the dreaming world and a true understanding of what an entrepreneur is.

which nobody had talked about. Because everybody thinks and says an entrepreneur is somebody who starts a business. And I'm saying, no, he's not. An entrepreneur is really eight distinct personalities. A dreamer, a thinker, a storyteller, a leader, a designer, a builder, a launcher, a grower.

I have a dream, I have a vision, I have a purpose, I have a mission, I have a job, I have a practice, I have a business, I have an enterprise. And once I realize that, Mark, it changed everything.

Mark Abbott (24:11.424)

And then, once you realize that, that there are these eight phases maybe of going from a solopreneur to actually a company builder and leader. Yes, no buzz.

Michael E. Gerber (24:32.76)

Yeah, yeah, going from a company of one to a company of 1,000 is the way to describe it.

Mark Abbott (24:34.517)

Yeah.

Mark Abbott (24:39.07)

Yes. then the Michael Thomas companies back then started to get to work with a bunch of different companies to help them understand sort of the entrepreneurial journey from a company of one to a company of a thousand, right?

Michael E. Gerber (24:58.678)

Yes. Yes.

And the Michael Thomas Corporation created turnkey systems to apply in the process to do that.

Mark Abbott (25:14.752)

Yes, yes. And so now all of a sudden you have these.

Mark Abbott (25:26.218)

cycles of learning, cycles I'm highly confident of refining the system and really understanding the components of the system. At some point you're like, think I really understand this, number one. Knowing you, next thing is, I think I know how to tell this story so that others will understand it. And then I think I will.

write a book, take me through the journey of, I've now developed a system. I now have a perspective of the humans that I'm working with, right? Specifically the entrepreneurs and specifically, I'm gonna use one of your phrases, Those who are having entrepreneurial seizures, right? You decide I know enough now to write a book. Is this plus or minus?

Michael E. Gerber (26:13.473)

Yes.

Mark Abbott (26:23.134)

Description of the journey so far?

Michael E. Gerber (26:25.208)

Sort of. The Michael Thomas Corporation generated clients. And we generated clients in a seminar. And it was called Key Frustrations in a Small and Growing Business and What to Do About Them. And I did that seminar. I wrote the script for that seminar.

Mark Abbott (26:46.546)

Uh-huh.

Mark Abbott (26:53.716)

Yeah.

Michael E. Gerber (26:53.984)

I delivered it three times a week. Eight years.

Mark Abbott (26:57.172)

for how many years?

Michael E. Gerber (27:03.957)

And our salespeople would go down the street knocking on doors and inviting small business owners to that seminar.

Mark Abbott (27:13.374)

Yeah, and this is in Northern California in the Bay Area basically. Yeah.

Michael E. Gerber (27:16.566)

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And at first we charged for it and ultimately we gave it away.

And it was a three hour seminar. Well, I'm doing that seminar, doing that seminar, doing that seminar, doing that seminar. And a guy comes up to me at the end of doing that seminar. And he said, Michael, he introduced himself. He said, my fiance is one of your employees. She told me I got to come and watch you do this. And he said,

And so I did. I'm a stringer, he said. I didn't know the word for Ballinger books. Ballinger's no longer with us. Harper acquired Ballinger. He said, Ballinger books and they want to create a small business book. I believe you're the one to produce that book.

Mark Abbott (28:21.984)

I've never heard this story. Yeah.

Michael E. Gerber (28:23.48)

Yeah. And he said, I'm going to go back to Ballinger and sell them that. And let's see what happens. He comes back to me. He said, they want to do it. I'm going to edit it. He said.

Mark Abbott (28:29.023)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Michael E. Gerber (28:40.898)

Let's get started. I said, what's the book going to be about? He said, your seminar's stupid.

I said, holy shit. Okay. I wrote the book in 90 days. He comes to me and he said, now you need a title. And I've got a title. I said, what is it? He said, the emit. Yeah. I said, what's the emit? He said, you've been talking about it for 10 years.

Mark Abbott (29:11.071)

Wow!

Michael E. Gerber (29:20.906)

It's the entrepreneurial myth.

Mark Abbott (29:25.982)

And that's the story.

Michael E. Gerber (29:26.23)

I said, you got it, yeah. And he said, I'm going to edit your book. I edited your book. Now it's going to be published and it's going to be called the E-Met. And that's how that book came about.

Mark Abbott (29:41.352)

And the rest is history as they say.

Michael E. Gerber (29:42.36)

Now understand where the Michael Thomas Corporation still

And so we were then receiving leads from the E-Myth. It ultimately became obvious to us to create the company from Michael Thomas to the E-Myth.

Mark Abbott (30:11.198)

Right.

Michael E. Gerber (30:12.546)

But before we did that, my partner and I had a falling out. So we changed Michael Thomas to Gerber Business Development. And then we changed Gerber Business Development to the EMETH Academy.

Mark Abbott (30:30.857)

Yeah.

Michael E. Gerber (30:32.01)

And then we changed the Emeth Academy to Emeth Worldwide.

And then E-Myth Worldwide simply became E-Myth.

But during the transition at the end, I left Emeth.

I'm a lousy manager, I guess, yeah, just, just terrible. I'm really a terrible entrepreneur as well.

Mark Abbott (30:58.526)

Yeah, we've had this conversation.

Mark Abbott (31:08.596)

Which, the irony of it all,

Michael E. Gerber (31:10.392)

Yes, I mean, it's, know, you come to the realizations about yourself. What's missing in this picture is a critical question everybody's got to ask. And it comes to the realization of what am I really here to do? It came to me in a very strange way when somebody said,

Mark Abbott (31:20.095)

Right.

Mark Abbott (31:28.596)

Yeah.

Michael E. Gerber (31:39.361)

You know, you really should read Torah. You really should read Torah. T-O-R-A-H. You really should read the Bible. And you should really read the Bible because in Genesis it says that we are born in the image of God.

Mark Abbott (31:46.078)

Read which one?

Michael E. Gerber (32:06.538)

And when somebody said that to me, it struck me that we're then born to create. That was my spin on it. And in response to what?

Mark Abbott (32:14.741)

Yes.

Mark Abbott (32:20.192)

Mm-hmm.

Michael E. Gerber (32:26.114)

May the world fit for God.

And the evolution of that idea, Mark, has lifted the heart of what I've been doing for the past decade.

Mark Abbott (32:41.023)

Yeah.

Michael E. Gerber (32:42.944)

And that is to recreate everything that he meant, had created.

in a way that became more significant.

to that guy, that woman who said I'm gonna start a business of my own. And the eight steps, the eight personalities of an entrepreneur, in my mind had to be introduced in a way that would never introduce them before.

And therein resides the evolution of an enterprise from a company of one to a company of one thousand, the dreamer, the thinker, the store, etc. and so forth.

Mark Abbott (33:32.959)

Right.

Mark Abbott (33:36.768)

When you look at this now, if you think about it, 78 to 88, 88 obviously to 98, 98 to 108, 108 to 118, right? We're almost on 50 years, right?

Michael E. Gerber (33:52.172)

Yep.

Mark Abbott (34:01.085)

I think that

Mark Abbott (34:05.436)

As you said, we're all creators and we want to do something. I believe every one of us wants to matter and the matter means we need to be doing something useful. And obviously the useful thing that we do is we create things that actually help other people be creators because ultimately if each of us wants to matter and to matter, we create things and we create things that help other people. Right. There's just this there's this whole thing here where

We're all in this process of mattering and that it's impossible to matter without mattering for others. And so we're all actually in the game of service, even though there's a lot of sort of stories that are out there that lead you down paths that don't actually reconcile well with that, like the individualist and all this kind of stuff. But we can't all be.

like create everything, because that's impossible. If you try to be everything, you're nothing kind of a thing. As you went through this journey over the last 50 years, and I think I know the answer, but I'm not, of course, to lead the witness here.

Mark Abbott (35:23.136)

have you been pretty darn consistent in terms of who you're trying to serve? And do you understand it more deeply today than you've ever understood it? What is your thought on how you matter and how you serve these days?

Michael E. Gerber (35:47.8)

One would say I've been too consistent because the person I'm speaking to in my mind has never changed.

And the person I'm speaking to has never changed. Meaning I haven't realized my dream. Because when Tom and I sat down to ask the question, so what's the Michael Thomas Corporation all about? We spent some serious time talking about that. And ultimately it came down to me saying I have a dream, Tom.

My dream is to transform the state of small business worldwide.

Michael E. Gerber (36:39.904)

And how we do that is what MTC is all about. MTC, the Michael Thomas Corporation.

Michael E. Gerber (36:53.27)

I always, when we talk, I always respond to what you say by correcting something. And I apologize for doing that. But the greatest problem in the way of doing this is that

The assumption that you make when you say what you've said, that we all want to do something meaningful, that you all want to have a positive impact upon people, et cetera. The problem I've realized is that's not true.

Mark Abbott (37:28.308)

Mm-hmm.

Mark Abbott (37:39.36)

Okay.

Michael E. Gerber (37:41.046)

And that's the greatest difficulty, that the vast majority of people who start their own companies aren't thinking about anyone but themselves.

Michael E. Gerber (37:55.032)

They don't have a higher motivation.

Michael E. Gerber (38:00.973)

This has been driven through to me, my consciousness, deeply over the 50 years that I've been engaged in this process. It's the most frustrating.

Michael E. Gerber (38:20.972)

negative experience that I've lived with all these years. One would think what you said would be true, because we wish it would be true.

Michael E. Gerber (38:36.606)

I think of Mark, think of higher mind.

Michael E. Gerber (38:43.626)

Unfortunately, the vast majority of us don't live in higher mind. We live in lower mind.

saying the folks who start small companies, the vast majority of people who start their own business started for a very selfish reason. It's to get rid of the boss.

I gotta get rid of the boss. I can do this on my own. And take home all the money.

Mark Abbott (39:14.538)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Michael E. Gerber (39:18.7)

That's the story, Mark, in a nutshell. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Abbott (39:20.446)

Yeah. Yeah. Let's go there for a second. So and then take it to that next step. Right. So one of the things I know you've you've been very kind to, you know, read my my blogs and we've had great conversations over the years. And as you may or may not recall, I deeply believe we we end up needing to have seven relation high trust relationships.

Michael E. Gerber (39:30.637)

Good.

Mark Abbott (39:50.452)

with seven different types of relationships, right? And so one of them obviously is as an example with family, and then one another one is with groups, right? And then another one is with the universe and there's seven. But remember, I've said that one of the seven, and it's an extraordinarily important one, is the relationship with yourself, right?

Michael E. Gerber (40:18.614)

Yes.

Mark Abbott (40:19.932)

And so my perspective is it's that classic, got to put the, you know, there's problems with the air in a plane, right, the mask comes down, you got to put that on yourself first before you can help others, right? And so I don't think you and I are in a disagreement on what you've just said, right? I think I look at it through the lens of

Yes, you and I, think one of the things that.

One of our shared passions, right, is helping people understand that ultimately they are going to feel better about the journey they're taking, right, better about how they matter if not only do they develop a very strong relationship with themselves, but they can start to expand how they matter.

and impact and lots of people don't get stuck on their own relationship, right, developmentally. then they feel as if they're, I don't use the term inadequate, but there's something more and they just never sort of like get, they never sort of get to that place where

They feel good about doing more. so there's this tension that both of us, think, are trying to help, which is helping people understand that they can have a bigger impact. They can do more. They don't have to. It's always up to them. But that the journey of life becomes more and more fulfilling as you're

Mark Abbott (42:22.292)

capable of coming out of being all about just yourself and creating something that goes beyond your own needs. But it's, as you said, I think there are a lot of people, including those who their solve was, just don't want a boss. There are a lot of people who end up

focusing mostly on themselves. And then this gets to the tragedy that you talked about at the very beginning of our discussion today, right? The tragedy of you could have done so much more for your family. You could have done so much more for your employees. You could have done so much more for your customers. You have so much more to give and you and I are here to help people see that they have so much more to give and it's actually not as complicated as most people think.

in terms of being able to be a bigger giver. But you got to understand who you are and then take advantage of things like the Emitri Visited. Understanding that to build a business, it's more than just you being the technician, you being the builder, you being the doer. How would you respond to that? How do you respond to

Michael E. Gerber (43:46.809)

You know, I'm going to respond to that. Yeah, because we have the same conversation over and over and over again. My response is you're in graduate school and I'm in kindergarten. And so.

Mark Abbott (43:56.159)

Yeah.

Mark Abbott (44:02.165)

Yeah.

Michael E. Gerber (44:10.9)

So, you know, the metaphor, I'm just really saying, when I say kindergarten, I'm saying I've got to speak in a more, more emphatically, distinctly clear way that they can appreciate it where they are.

Mark Abbott (44:37.216)

Yeah, but you still, and I are, whether we, we're, that's what we're trying to do is that's, that's how we're trying to make an impact is to help these people see beyond themselves and the opportunity behind them. Yeah. Yeah.

Michael E. Gerber (44:38.2)

and

We're in agreement. We're in agreement.

Michael E. Gerber (44:51.032)

Of course, of course. And it's simply a question of how we do that. And really, it's simply a question of how we do that. So I walk them now through that process. I have a dream. What is it? I can spend a week with clients before they ever get it.

Hear me? That's how fundamental this is. Because if I don't have a tree, meaning what am I here to do?

Mark Abbott (45:22.058)

Yeah.

Michael E. Gerber (45:30.13)

which raises the question for whom am I here to do it, etc. etc. etc. What am I here to do? So I walk them through that process to the point where they can finally say, I have a dream. Now, my dream is still 1977. And I'm here today speaking to you the same dream, to transform the state of small business worldwide.

Mark Abbott (45:53.077)

Yeah.

Michael E. Gerber (45:57.463)

Because I know that if I'm capable of transforming the state of small business worldwide, I'm capable of transforming the state of entrepreneurship worldwide. And if I'm capable of doing that, I'm capable of transforming the state of economic development worldwide. Now, if you and I could do that more,

the world we transform.

how that's how big that is.

But until I get step one to transform the state of small business worldwide, I'll never get on with number two, number three, number four, et cetera.

Mark Abbott (46:48.712)

All right, Michael, so we're going to have a classic Mark and Michael conversation. I'm going to push back on you right now and say that you're actually not, me knowing you, you actually are not about transforming the state of small businesses worldwide.

Michael E. Gerber (46:52.6)

Yes.

Michael E. Gerber (46:57.965)

Good.

Michael E. Gerber (47:08.193)

Okay.

Mark Abbott (47:08.958)

You are about...

helping entrepreneurs understand that they have the ability to actually create a small business that could become a real business. But I think you're more about the individual than you are about the business itself. And the individual I'm talking about is the entrepreneur. Am I wrong?

Michael E. Gerber (47:33.622)

Yes. It's not language. It's fact. When you say the entrepreneur, I'm saying the small business owner.

Mark Abbott (47:40.564)

Yeah.

Mark Abbott (47:48.383)

Yes.

Michael E. Gerber (47:55.989)

and I'm making a major distinction between them. I'm there to convert the small business owner into an entrepreneur.

Mark Abbott (47:59.23)

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Abbott (48:05.746)

I love it. But the point I was trying to make is you're about the individual.

Michael E. Gerber (48:08.8)

I got obviously, because I can't transform the state of small business worldwide unless I've transformed the state of the individual worldwide.

Mark Abbott (48:21.822)

of the small business owner.

Michael E. Gerber (48:23.66)

Yes, the small business owner. Yep. Yeah. It's all personal.

Mark Abbott (48:25.62)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yes. And so if you look at almost 50 years now and the thing that you've been passionate about,

Mark Abbott (48:45.012)

And you look at the nature of society and technology and economies and everything that's gone on over the last 50 years.

Mark Abbott (48:59.187)

Is the problem?

pretty much the exact same problem.

Michael E. Gerber (49:07.562)

Absolutely. Absolutely. Because all the rest of it is tools.

Tools, you know them. Tools. Yeah. Yeah. But you put a tool into the hands of a midget. It doesn't make them a seven-foot guy.

and we're putting tools into the hands of a midget.

Mark Abbott (49:35.328)

Mm-hmm.

Michael E. Gerber (49:37.268)

And he tries to, but he's still dysfunctional.

Mark Abbott (49:45.694)

Yeah.

Michael E. Gerber (49:47.285)

all those tools gone to waste. Think about that all those profound capabilities because of the tools that have been created to make it work.

It would be like giving me a new carburetor to install in my car.

Michael E. Gerber (50:15.65)

Yeah.

Michael E. Gerber (50:19.256)

Pardon the language.

Mark Abbott (50:19.872)

Do you feel like... Do you feel like...

And this is one of these like not even, you know, not even almost satisfactory conversations right now, right? But if you look at the small business owner today versus 50 years ago,

Michael E. Gerber (50:44.151)

Yeah.

Michael E. Gerber (50:49.548)

Yeah.

Mark Abbott (50:53.79)

that individual has access to, as you just said, to some extent, an amazingly larger collection of not just tools, but they all are really tools, right? But they have an amazing access to just an extraordinarily more advanced set of tools. Beg your pardon?

Michael E. Gerber (51:17.406)

and thinkers.

Michael E. Gerber (51:21.913)

and thinkers. Thinkers like you.

Mark Abbott (51:23.881)

Yes.

Teachers.

Michael E. Gerber (51:28.504)

Teachers, thinkers, and yeah. Yes, Yes. Absolutely. I think the number in America is today there are 83,000 business coaches.

Mark Abbott (51:30.994)

and facilitators and coaches and a whole host of humans that could help them with certain things they're struggling with.

Michael E. Gerber (51:49.457)

Think about that. Check the number. yeah, but, but, and I look at them and they're all in a way a spin-off of what we started to do in 1977. And I keep on seeing them. And pardon me, it's again, in fact, overly emphatic.

Mark Abbott (51:49.514)

Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't shock me. Yeah.

Mark Abbott (52:09.13)

Yeah.

Michael E. Gerber (52:20.433)

seeing them doing the right thing in the wrong way.

Mark Abbott (52:28.372)

both the coaches or the business owners.

Michael E. Gerber (52:28.696)

Yet the coaches, the coaches, the coaches. Because in effect, the vast majority of coaches are selling something.

And on the one hand, they're selling themselves. Coach Murray, I know how to do this. Coach Mary, I know how to do this. Coach Jim, Coach Jolly, Coach, I know how to do this. I know how to do this. Each creating their own way to do this.

Mark Abbott (52:51.327)

Right.

Michael E. Gerber (53:09.676)

to differentiate themselves in the market to get clients.

Mark Abbott (53:14.549)

Mm-hmm.

Michael E. Gerber (53:17.512)

And in the process, something is seriously missing.

Mark Abbott (53:24.736)

And would you say that Michael, because when you look at once again back and you just look at the small business owner and you look at the number of small business owners and you look at the state of the mindset of the small business owner, do you not see much change in the 50 years? it still?

the same percentage? it still the same number? Is it still the same game? it just like, even though all of this has been made available to these humans, the vast majority of them are still suffering the tragedy that you talked about in the very beginning.

Michael E. Gerber (53:55.777)

Yes.

Michael E. Gerber (54:15.768)

Do me a favor, do yourself a favor, do us all a favor.

Mark Abbott (54:18.943)

Yeah.

Michael E. Gerber (54:24.62)

Go and do the research.

And you'll discover, you will. In the way that you discover everything has led you to write and teach and speak about what you speak about, et cetera and so forth. Go into that marketplace and you'll see what I'm saying. My belief is you'll understand or come to the same point of agreement with me about that.

Mark Abbott (54:57.502)

Yeah. Yeah. So it's an another way of putting it is when it's interesting, right? So let's and I'm going to do the stupid marketing I do. Right. So let's just say for the sake of this conversation, then

Michael E. Gerber (54:58.869)

I believe that.

Michael E. Gerber (55:11.32)

Mark, let me say something. You never do the stupid Mark thing. Ever. Because there is no stupid Mark.

Mark Abbott (55:25.408)

Thank you. But if we go back 50 years, right, just to make the, just to do some simple math, because I'm the math guy, right, today plus or minus in the United States, we have plus or minus every single year, let's just say 600 to 800,000 people who start a business.

Michael E. Gerber (55:30.231)

Yep.

Michael E. Gerber (55:48.643)

Think about that. I mean, think about that. Don't be, yeah, don't be, yeah, don't be like when you say that. 600 to 800 thousand every year. Think about that. Therein resides the tragedy.

Mark Abbott (55:50.613)

Right?

Trust me.

Mark Abbott (55:59.197)

I'm not.

Mark Abbott (56:03.903)

Yes.

every year.

Mark Abbott (56:12.992)

Right? Well, that, so I was going to go there next, right? So now, okay, so we have this, we have this number and maybe if we go back, you know, 50 years, maybe the number was a little bit smaller, but my gut is it was probably not, not significant. wasn't one third or one quarter, 10 % of that. It's still a big number, right? Now, if we look at this 50 years ago versus today,

Michael E. Gerber (56:16.066)

Yeah.

Michael E. Gerber (56:32.054)

No. Yes. Yep.

Mark Abbott (56:43.346)

This is where I think you and I have a lot of shared emotion, for lack of a better term, right? It probably is still 90 % of those businesses fail within 10 years.

Michael E. Gerber (57:00.94)

Yep.

Mark Abbott (57:03.23)

So with all this progress quote unquote that we've had and with all these coaches and with all these operating systems with everything, everything, everything, everything, we have not gotten much better. Is that true or false?

Michael E. Gerber (57:20.728)

True. And perfect. Another way of looking at it is you, I'm sure you've been, you're familiar with the musk thing. Yeah. And doge.

Mark Abbott (57:22.495)

Yeah.

Mark Abbott (57:34.314)

Who's that?

Mark Abbott (57:38.655)

Yeah.

Michael E. Gerber (57:42.284)

You look at that with everything we have learned over the years. You look at that tragedy and you've got to say, what is wrong with us?

Mark Abbott (57:47.925)

Yeah.

Michael E. Gerber (58:00.131)

market. That's the question. What is wrong with us? Fundamentally wrong with us. That's what lives at the heart of what I'm speaking about. What in the world is wrong with us? How could our government

Mark Abbott (58:14.686)

Yeah.

Michael E. Gerber (58:23.766)

be so fundamentally flawed.

Michael E. Gerber (58:31.052)

the billions of dollars invested in being so flawed. What is wrong with us, Mark?

That's the most important.

Mark Abbott (58:44.864)

You know, I have thoughts on this and I appreciate you writing a blurb for me on Work 9.0. you know, we really do know how all this happened and we really do understand where we are in this developmental journey that we, as an example, as a society are going through.

And the reality is that, back to what I said earlier, people want to matter. And if you're in bureaucracy, the way you matter is by getting more and more people to report to you. And every one of those people, humans in those bureaucracies, and how many of them are there in the government today, right? It's all the road to whatever is paved with good intentions, right? I think that's Hayek, right? But...

Michael E. Gerber (59:27.937)

Yep.

Mark Abbott (59:39.688)

Yet we know how we got here. And then unfortunately, I have another series coming out in my sub stack on this about complexity and collapse. And what happens is if you look at history of societies, whether it's the Mayans or the Chinese a thousand years ago or the Roman Empire.

these all these bureaucracies, they just become more more more complex until at some point the entropy that exists in the universe, right, just becomes so heavy that they collapse, right? And people are like, I can't deal with it anymore. I don't know how to deal with it. It's too complex. know, how do you, you

Michael E. Gerber (01:00:26.71)

Yes.

Mark Abbott (01:00:36.882)

And the problem is you have all these vested interests, all these people who want to matter and all these different unique perspectives. Once again, all with good intentions for the vast majority. And it gets to the point where it's just like, you know, no one's going to fight for it anymore. Right. And it collapses. so, yeah, that's a whole nother conversation. But, you know, I go back to the small business owner.

and the state of the small business owner. And as you know, and you and I have talked about for years now, and you've given me some really very direct advice on all this, which is that we can have all of the most amazing technology in the world. We can have all the great, the best playbooks, the best assessments, the best sort of concepts and tools and disciplines.

that you could ever need. I deeply believe we have these things. But if you cannot hit the heart and mind of the business owner and help them understand that they could be more, then you're going to continue to just have 90 % failure rate. And I think

You know, as you've been counseling me for years now, you know, I need to be a better storyteller. I need to be more effective at helping people understand what we're talking about right now. I own that as a

Michael E. Gerber (01:02:16.056)

I want to again correct you. It is not, you're not, it's not that you have to become a better storyteller. You're an exquisite storyteller. You're just telling a story for a different person than I am. They've already evolved.

Mark Abbott (01:02:20.416)

Of course.

Mark Abbott (01:02:38.581)

Yes.

Yeah, yeah. I think that's a really good point here, right? Because when I was thinking about today, this opportunity, which thank you, right? When I was thinking about our conversation today, I was thinking about you and your passion and your focus on the business owner. And my focus.

Michael E. Gerber (01:02:43.382)

Mine haven't.

Mark Abbott (01:03:12.062)

which has been on the business owner who's taken at least a couple steps forward, right? They're trying to build a company. they've gone beyond themselves, at least they want to, right? They wanna build a company now, right? Or they wanna build a business. They've gone beyond the original.

Michael E. Gerber (01:03:20.439)

Yes.

Mark Abbott (01:03:41.672)

I think you're going to correct me on this, right? They've gone beyond the original, one of the original personas that you were speaking to, which is the individual didn't want a boss, who just has their own business, right? Who's doing everything, wearing every single hat, the sales hat, the marketing hat, the production hat, right? The design hat, et cetera, right? And you wanted to see, help them see that they could be more and do more.

Michael E. Gerber (01:04:03.735)

Right.

Mark Abbott (01:04:11.36)

And then I'm hitting them predominantly after they've left stage one, they've left stage two, they're now into stage three where they have 10, 20, 50, 100 employees. But the system that they've created is just chaotic, right?

Michael E. Gerber (01:04:37.207)

Yeah.

Mark Abbott (01:04:41.588)

They haven't been, I don't want to use the term thoughtful, right? But they just, they've been so focused on that next level of work and they didn't, and hiring people. And then, you know, one day you wake up and you're like, well, I've got a marketing organization, I've got a sales organization, I've got a production organization, operation, customer success, I've got finance, right? But.

All I do all day long is help these people get along. They don't even like working with one another. They're all doing different things. They all have different agendas, right? And they all think they're good human beings, but even culturally, like some of them are like, you know, I just want to make sure my team is really happy. And others are like, I'm all about performance. I need to be able to run this thing at a hundred miles per hour. And so you got some people with one little type of a team and another type of a team and another type of a team and another type of a team.

Michael E. Gerber (01:05:15.49)

Right. Right.

Michael E. Gerber (01:05:35.329)

Yeah.

Mark Abbott (01:05:36.764)

And the founder, because now it's moved from a business owner to a founder, the founder is just tearing out his or her hair because there's chaos everywhere. And they feel like they're doing some of every single person's job. it's just like, I don't want to say it's literally killing me, but in a lot of situations, it's really adversely impacting their life, physically, emotionally.

you know, spiritually, right? So, I'm sorry.

Michael E. Gerber (01:06:09.652)

It's literally killing them.

It is literally killing them.

Mark Abbott (01:06:15.944)

It is, it is literally, right? And so it's interesting that, you know, I think my passion has been around that those humans that are a few steps down the road in terms of the entrepreneurial journey. And yours has been, as you said, to help, you know, the smallest of the small business owners understand that there's a tragedy if they don't multiply themselves to some extent.

Michael E. Gerber (01:06:43.958)

Yeah, well, I am talking about startup.

Mark Abbott (01:06:47.166)

Yeah.

Michael E. Gerber (01:06:48.62)

So everything I've referred to, I say, let's start up again. Because wherever you are in that beginning journey, that's old code.

Mark Abbott (01:06:53.801)

Yeah.

Michael E. Gerber (01:07:03.192)

We have to focus on new code.

Mark Abbott (01:07:05.896)

Yeah, scalable code.

Michael E. Gerber (01:07:07.816)

And yes, how do you create a company from the beginning, from step one? You ask the essential questions you need to ask before you ever get to the point of doing it, doing it, doing it,

Mark Abbott (01:07:27.285)

Yeah.

Michael E. Gerber (01:07:28.662)

And that's why the dream, the vision, the purpose, and the mission create a platform for the next four steps. The job, the practice, the business, the enterprise. And so I walked them through the dreaming room as an introduction, creating a great growing company. And the questions that are raised

Mark Abbott (01:07:51.039)

Yeah.

Michael E. Gerber (01:07:57.815)

The answers that are given are truly breakthroughs. And if you read the quotes from Holy, it's the Holy shit experience. It's like I never thought of that before.

Mark Abbott (01:08:13.216)

Yeah.

Michael E. Gerber (01:08:19.678)

And when you have somebody saying that at the very beginning.

Mark Abbott (01:08:24.821)

Yes.

Michael E. Gerber (01:08:26.888)

It's just amazing.

And it's that that I've discovered in these most recent years. That's why I call it the new email. Email is about tools and coaching and coaching. well, that's what I mean by, you know, how to do this, how to do this, how to do this, how to do this and orchestrating those tools and teaching our client how to use them.

Mark Abbott (01:08:44.552)

Mm-hmm and systems

Michael E. Gerber (01:09:04.65)

I come back before tools.

Because it came to the realization tools are not enough. And when you said systems, the tools produce systems.

I come back pre that.

And that's where something magical occurs.

and were you to sit in a dreaming room, you'd see it. You'd instantly get it. I know you would. I trust your earnestness for the creation of something stunning.

Michael E. Gerber (01:09:54.027)

And I know you have the experience of that with those more advanced clients, students.

and I know you immediately get what I'm talking about experientially. And that experience will blow your mind. I trust that.

And when your mind is blown, Mark, you'll see more in it than I do. Because when you see, so what's changed for you in 50 years? And I say nothing.

You say Gerber, you've got to be the stupidest guy on the planet. Because if nothing's changed in 50, then obviously something's changed. The emergence of this conversation we're having.

Mark Abbott (01:10:53.044)

Yeah.

Michael E. Gerber (01:10:58.956)

but were you to experience the dream in Rome?

of sitting in it, experiencing the dreaming room. You experience it in a way that you haven't experienced it before.

And the minute you get that, you get why I say this is the biggest thing on the planet.

that were someone take what now I've created and launch it. Now I've launched it. We've done countless streaming rooms. 10 years. Yeah. Probably longer than that. My wife.

Mark Abbott (01:11:38.578)

Yeah, how long you been doing the dreaming rooms for now, Michael?

Michael E. Gerber (01:11:51.103)

me that we've been married for 20 years. I said, holy shit, that long? She said, yeah, yeah, Gerber, 20 years. Yes. So she would probably tell me, no, Michael, it's longer than that. Yeah. In some way, we started it 20 years ago.

Mark Abbott (01:11:59.338)

Well, know right now I have to say, Lusinello, hello. Big warm hug, speaking of your wife. Yeah.

Michael E. Gerber (01:12:21.708)

But I forget when my first dreaming was. Somebody just told me, because he was there in that first dreaming room. And I forget the date.

Mark Abbott (01:12:33.866)

Right.

Mark Abbott (01:12:37.834)

Yeah. Well, so I think we're going to come to, and we will probably do more of these, but come to a close here. But I do want to close on the dreaming room, right? Because I know that's been back to this whole conversation around your focus on on helping the business owner, the small business owner, understand that this

step that you and I would love for them to take this

Mark Abbott (01:13:14.464)

attack we both have on the tragedy of the small business owner who doesn't evolve and take on a bigger responsibility. It's impossible to address the issue without igniting the dream.

Michael E. Gerber (01:13:35.734)

Yes.

Mark Abbott (01:13:37.0)

Right. And so that's been the thing that you've been doing a lot of focusing a lot of in your young age is the dreaming room. And what I'd love to do is link to something and below, as they say. Right. So that people can learn more about the dreaming room because you and I are both, you know,

on a mission here, which is to, as you said at the very beginning, right, to improve the small business, the world of the small business, because the small business is at the heart and soul, I believe, of a healthy society, as you and I agreed on many, many, many times over the years. And so I'm a huge fan of your passion for igniting people's dreams.

And I just always love our time together. I always love the back and forth and you correcting my word choice. as we finish up here, is there anything else you'd like to share with the folks who we believe, I think you and I believe, I have the good fortune of being able to watch a conversation like this.

Michael E. Gerber (01:14:47.127)

you

Michael E. Gerber (01:15:03.2)

Yes, well, we're at a stage here to replicate me. And so we call them leaders of the dreaming room. So anyone who is truly empathic about the opportunity to transform the state of small business owners worldwide, the dreaming room is the way we do it.

And I'm looking for people who say, want to do that, I want to transform this state of small business owners worldwide. I want to learn how to do that. Join me and they can reach me at michael at michael e gerber.com. Straight to me. I'll speak to them. Michael at michael e gerber.com.

Mark Abbott (01:16:01.514)

Is there.

Are there any characteristics besides obviously being drawn to this mission? Are there any characteristics of the types of humans you're looking for in terms of helping you extend the dreaming room reach?

Michael E. Gerber (01:16:26.664)

Anybody who has been moved by our conversation will in fact most likely be a likely candidate to lead a training room because we'll teach them everything they need to know. And so if they've been inspired by your

share my share and the emergence of that one share, they are very, very likely great candidates to lead dream rooms. All they need to do is contact me and I'll find out whether that's true or not.

Mark Abbott (01:17:12.976)

All right, with that, Michael, as always, love our time together, super appreciate you. And as I said, give a big warm hug to Luz Delia for me. who knows, maybe we'll have some more time doing something else on this little channel.

Michael E. Gerber (01:17:25.228)

Hi, bro.

Michael E. Gerber (01:17:32.537)

I'd love to walk you through a dreaming room here and take you through those eight steps.

Mark Abbott (01:17:37.08)

that'd be cool.

Michael E. Gerber (01:17:42.538)

And then you can respond to me as we do it.

Mark Abbott (01:17:42.656)

Alright.

Mark Abbott (01:17:47.912)

We'll work on that one. All right, Michael. Thank you. Always. Bye-bye.

Michael E. Gerber (01:17:49.56)

You got it. Thank you, Mark. A pleasure. Bye bye.