Should Founders Rebuild for AI? feat. Audra Stanton

Audra Stanton

[0:00:07]

Hey, Mark, how's it going?

Mark Abbott

[0:00:09]

I'm doing well. How are you doing?

Audra Stanton

[0:00:11]

Doing good.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:12]

Good, good, good, good. So today's conversation is going to be an interesting one. Today is going to be about founders and product and AI and, and sort of where the world's going, where the pressures are coming from, the kinds of decisions that founders and their leadership teams are probably dealing with all over the place right now. And you, as a head of product, have some thoughts on this, and I have some thoughts on this, and we're going to see where our thoughts take us.

Audra Stanton

[0:00:56]

Sounds like a plan.

Mark Abbott

[0:01:00]

So what are you seeing right now and reading and thinking about in terms of sort of this moment in time where, you know, you have to have been, you know, far, far away from civilization to not realize that AI is a part of the conversation? The news, it's ubiquitous. And I'm sure the vast, vast majority of founders, especially what I like to refer to as exceptional founders, founders are trying to build something significant and enduring. They're probably all, the vast, vast majority of them, probably all have one or two or three versions of a general LLM that they're. They're talking with. So they're becoming very familiar with it. Their teams are probably talking about it and, and, and, and there's a lot of different choices that are out there. So let's just talk about your. What you're seeing right now in terms of those conversations and, and your sense for things.

Audra Stanton

[0:02:16]

Yeah, so there's there's kind of two different categories of founders right now. Right. There's the ones who have an existing product and an existing business that doesn't have any AI as part of it. They might be using it here and there on the side for their own, like, personal use or to help with some business decisions. But their product and what they sell does not yet have any sort of AI incorporated or being utilized for anything in the process of purchasing or anything like that. And then you have people thinking about becoming founders who are contemplating what they want to build and wanting to maybe build something that's not AI in some cases, and feeling like in this day and age, they have to almost have that in order to get from funding and attention from people and get people to care about it. So I don't think there's necessarily like. I think there's like a little bit of a divide there where there's definitely more pressure from. I think founders who are kind of on the newer side where they're like, I want to build something great. I want to solve this Problem. I feel like I've got to do something with AI to do it. Whereas I think, you know, previous to AI, that was online and when online was like a new thing and the Internet was really becoming a place of E commerce, people were feeling the pressure once there was success in that space to go online and not have, you know, a storefront and things like that. So I definitely think, especially with kind of those, those new founders contemplating how they want to best make an impact. AI is part of what they're thinking about in a lot of cases, and how and if they should incorporate it is really the big question.

Mark Abbott

[0:04:08]

Do you think that. Founders who want to build exceptional companies, Right. Companies that'll endure for decades to come. Right. Companies that'll have a position of strength within a chosen niche. Do you think many people are out there, even tempting to start a company without thinking about how to best leverage AI?

Audra Stanton

[0:04:37]

I think there are, because if you look at like the restaurant industry, it's based on the idea of that in person, you know, personal connection to people and providing a really great product, where to establish product market fit. You might not need AI to do that at that early, early stage, but as you kind of get to the point where you're humming, your business is working and you're starting to think about scaling, that's when I think the question kind of comes in more for those founders, like, is AI going to have a role for those kind of verticals? Where historically technology has been an assist in terms of like the product and the delivery of what you're selling, but it hasn't really been the main event. Um, and a lot of our clients here at 90 are, have those kind of companies, like, established, some of them newer, some of them more, you know, established. But there are, are verticals where it's not as clear where AI would come into play. And I'm personally very interested to see kind of where that goes. And I know Amazon recently, they're in the process, I think, of closing a bunch of their digital, like, I forget what they call it. Like, you can just go, you can walk away without having to like, pay for it, stop and pay for it. It's like an instantaneous thing that it pulls the money or whatever. And part of it was because the technology just wasn't kind of meeting the need of the users. And it was a very competitive market where they're trying to compete with grocery stores where users are already going to go and people want to know how much they're spending when they go to stores like that and so the technology just, it didn't fit, you know, it just wasn't a fit for what they were trying to do. It didn't make them competitive. So I think some of the verticals that have historically been, you know, in person, software, maybe as an assist, are feeling some pressure, like, what are you going to do with AI? How could this potentially help you with your product? And I don't know what that's going to look like. I'm excited to see the companies out there that are kind of trying something with it, because I think that's really interesting. But I do think that there is some misses that I've seen. Amazon's a good instance, not of AI, but of technology that was just not fitting what the users really wanted or needed. And I think sometimes that pressure to utilize the technology tends to usurp the point, which is like, you want to give users something that really meets their needs or else you're going to have trouble getting it off the ground.

Mark Abbott

[0:07:28]

Yeah, I think it's, you know, you really want to break the conversation down, I think, in at least two, two ways. Right. There's the product side and there's the operational side. Right. I've been guilty for decades of sort of being a, you know, early user of technology. And in my mind, every company, you know, a company. Right. Not just a little business, obviously, but. But even, probably almost all businesses are going to leverage AI for something. Right. Whether it's hiring or whether it's for procurement or whether it's for, you know, accounting. I mean, it's just going to make its way into the operations. Um, I'm willing to bet on that one. Right. And then what's interesting is, you know, like you said, you know, in a restaurant, obviously the main thing there is obviously delivering food and service. Depends obviously on the type of restaurant. But even there, if we go to, you know, on the customer service front, you know, you could see certain things, businesses down the road where even if it's a fast food, they actually know who you are coming in and what you tend to order. Right. So, you know, back to providing, you know, sort of service that, you know, that really works well, there's a lot of. I can see AI coming in and supporting, you know, a lot of different businesses. Let's talk about, as an example, you could say, well, you know, let's talk about, you know, an outdoor business, actually. Let's, let's go to restaurants for a second. Let's say that everybody in the restaurant, or at least maybe in the, in the kitchen has a wearable, right? So you can see what's, you know, so you can see what's going on. You can use it for training, you can use it to help them find stuff. Right. I mean, it's kind of interesting to look at it through that lens. No pun intended. And as we know, one of my buddies has an AI company that supports landscapers. You're like landscapers, right? But once again, back to wearables, right? So the wearables helps the owners understand where everybody is. They help them be able to eventually see what's going on in the field. Obviously if something happens, right, they can immediately, you know, just through the lens of one of their field workers, get a sense for things. I mean, it's really. Right, you can, you know, you can really start to go a little bit, you know, I don't even say sci fi. It's just take the imagination just like one step forward and in a bunch of different industries and you can probably identify a use case for where AI would be of value.

Audra Stanton

[0:10:36]

Yeah, I think that's true. I think getting a good sense of your user Persona through data gathering is definitely something AI can help you do depending on how it's implemented. And I think the technology is getting better. The thing I think of when I think of the restaurant industry in particular though is actually different, which is you have a host of different jobs that you need to successfully run a restaurant. And some of them are not necessarily jobs people really love having. They're kind of jobs that are not that exciting, like bussing tables and doing thousands and thousands of loads of dishes every night when you have, you know, a really good night. And those kind of jobs I think will be replaced by robotics at some point, which I think is good for, you know, that particular vertical, just as an example, because it will allow people who would have previously had to occupy those jobs, jobs that tend to have higher turnover, lower amounts of job satisfaction, to be able to do work that they love a lot more because they don't have to worry about, you know, owners of restaurants don't have to worry about filling those seats. Instead they can focus on the things that matter most in terms of customer service, making the best food possible. So I do, I see it a little differently in that I think there's going to be, I don't think of it as job replacement. I think of it more as like jobs that people probably don't love doing anyways, that just become non jobs anymore. Like when factories during the industrial revolution became a thing. And no One had to make the little toothpaste lids for the toothpaste tubes. I don't think anyone was super sad to see that job go away. Right. It just meant that those people that, that would have done that get to do something more extraordinary with their time and love working maybe more than they would have if they were doing that job. So I do think we're kind of in the midst of, and whether it's AI, whether it's something else, I think our world kind of where we are today is at a point, kind of like we were in the Industrial revolution, where we're going to see some jobs that just go away. But I don't think it's necessarily going to be as easy as, like, jobs that people love to do are instantly removed. I think it's more going to be those ones that, you know, are not something people love to do. Can we automate it? Can we make, can we put robotics in place to do the job maybe even better than a human would have done it and more consistently? It's interesting. I think there's definitely a lot of progress that's been made in that domain when it trickles into the verticals to actually start to use. We'll have to wait and see. But I definitely, I just think of it a little bit differently. I think in terms of the application.

Mark Abbott

[0:13:40]

I'm optimistic as well that, you know, it's going to enable us to, more and more of us to be doing, you know, work that we find enjoyable and that can challenge us and, and in a, in a good, good way. So, so, you know, I'm with you on the optimistic side of what it's going, the impact it's going to have. You know, my, my, my point is when you look at, you know, running a business, you know, you can look at it through the product and services side or you can look at it through the delivery side. And, and, and, you know, really what I was trying to, to, to convey is that I, I think almost every business is going to be impacted by AI in one way or another. And then it's just a question of, you know, I think a really interesting question is, you know, you have people like me who traditionally, you know, I stood in line when the first. I think I've said this on podcast before. I was in line when the first iPad came out, right. I waited for it, I pre ordered it, I thought it'd be super cool. And on the other hand, I really struggled with changing from a BlackBerry to an iPhone. Not because of that. I didn't think it was really super cool technology. I just, like, it was so much easier for me and I was so used to using that BlackBerry, that crackberry as they used to call it, way, way, way back when. So, you know, it's interesting. It's, you know, as a, as a, as a founder and as leadership teams, where do you, you know, sort of, you know, how do you, how do you look at the technology? Do you look at it as something you, you really need to be getting your arms around, whether it's on the product services side and, or the operational side at this moment, or is it like, you know, you, you see it, but you'd rather make sure that it's, you know, you know, it's that, that whatever you're thinking about leveraging or using, you know, it's time tested and you feel like you can, you can count on it and it's safe and, and, and, and you know what it's going to do and you're not fearful about, you know, leveraging it because, you know, because you just don't understand it that well. And I think, I think that's also a really, you know, interesting. It's, it's a really interesting moment in time in that regard because I do think that over the last year,

Audra Stanton

[0:16:07]

you

Mark Abbott

[0:16:07]

know, my, my take is, you know, we, we have a decent sense for what it is and what it can do and what its limitations are and, and how, you know, you can have a sense for how it's going to, you know, sort of roll out over the next, you know, bunch of years in terms of, you know, in terms of, you know, sort of the usefulness of the technology and where you can apply it. So, you know, I feel like it's, we're getting to a point where, you know, I think some report was, I think it was MIT or HBR or something. McKinsey, someone was saying that the like 80% of the businesses were using it, but, but like less than 5% were actually seeing real value out of leveraging it. So I think you're going to start to see that percentage start to climb now where people really know how to use it and can understand the roi.

Audra Stanton

[0:17:03]

Yeah, I think that's a really good point. The go back to one thing you said, mark, about the BlackBerry and changing from that to the iPhone, because I do think that's very important when founders are thinking about technology and how they want to incorporate it into a product, maybe in a big way, maybe in a small way, because we're creatures of habit and we get used to something and it's the thing that we love. And so when that thing changes even slightly, in some cases, it feels like a big deal even if it's not. And it's forcing you to learn something new. And by nature, as humans, even though we learn little things here and there, the idea of learning to a lot of people is hard. And so it's like, well, I have to learn this whole new thing that's going to be hard. Is it going to be worth it to me in the end to do it if they still make the old thing, Is it worth it to me to take the time to switch? So there is this, with AI and product, this change management consideration, and we face that at 90, in fact, a lot, where customers are just really, really used to the software, like the way we have it. So when we add things, even if it's things that are going to make, give them ultimately a better user experience or give them more data on their company, that's going to help them grow, it feels uncomfortable and it feels hard. And there's also a. I think we see like a little bit of a generational difference there. The older you are, the harder it is to change, and the younger you are, the more adaptable and easier it is to try new things, because you're in that learning mode of being young and going to school and learning all the time. So that adaptability is more of like a second nature part of who you are, as opposed to when you have established certain patterns more firmly in your life that you like and that work for you. So that piece, I think, is something founders do need to consider, which is how much is too much if I want to incorporate it, and how do I make sure users aren't blindsided by a change, even if it's going to be for their benefit, so that we can go into it with feedback and iterate on whatever that thing is as time goes on. It's tough, it's tough to find that balance.

Mark Abbott

[0:19:25]

Yeah. And it's interesting that, you know, even things, you know, you could, you can have something where 80% of your customers, right, are going to appreciate the change. And then you have the 20% who are like, look, I don't. Right. I don't want, I don't like that change at all. And so then the question is, right, what are you going to do right, as a, as a, as a founder? And you know, there's usually like, there's, you know, you could say, well, we're just going to do it right and, and, and you know, see what happens. Maybe you know, old Coke, new Coke, right Kind of a thing, right. And, and so, you know, maybe you try to, you know, have both, but that obviously just makes, you know, makes the business more complicated, makes messaging more comp. I mean, it just, it has a whole host of negative issues, right? Or, you know, you end up doing, not doing it. And the next thing you know, you know, your customer base starts to decline because you've over indexed on, you know, your older customers and, and the newer customers are going, well, wait a second, right? This is like, this is, you know, this is, this is old school stuff. So, you know, and it's funny, I was thinking about just literally yesterday I was thinking about some decisions I made literally 30 years ago, right. And they were not popular and, but they were absolutely the right thing to do for the company. And you know, at that moment in time I was 34 years old and, and you know, to me it was just, we got to do this. You know, in hindsight, you know, today I, I do not think I would have been as bold as I was 34 years ago. It's just like, no, we have to do, this is where the world's going. We have to do this stuff. So I, I think it's, it's interesting, you know, the, some of, some of the, some of the decisions that I think founders are going to have to make over the next 18 to 24 months. There's some big decisions that need to be made. And you know, and ultimately, you know, this gets down to why I think ICP is really important and making sure everybody in your company's on the same page in terms of your ICP. You know, for us, particularly in our 90IO business, our ICP is a business owner of a company with 10 to 250 employees that are running on EOs. And so that's a very clear thing. And that's, and we listen to their leadership teams and we listen to their employees, but the most important voice is, is the business owner. And so, and sometimes because you know, we have 18,000 business owners, ish, in our companies and then we have hundreds of thousands of employees. And so sometimes, you know, what you're feeling is we got a lot of employees who like are not perfectly in love with something, but the owner loves that thing, right? And so just very interesting times it is.

Audra Stanton

[0:23:00]

And I think to that point, Mark, you can have, we have your, you have your ICP, right? But within that, especially if you are B2B company and selling to companies. Companies are made up of all kinds of different users at all kinds of different levels with all kinds of different needs. So if you're selling to one person who's the purchaser for it on behalf of the entire company, the user Personas, you might have seven user Personas within one of your ICP companies that you're trying to address, which is no easy task. It's something that's not as difficult, I don't think, with B2C, because you just don't have that problem of like a broad user base where there's a lot of different needs. You do have different needs with B2C to customer. To customer, of course, but it's very different when you're purchasing on behalf of someone else.

Mark Abbott

[0:23:51]

For us in particular, you know, there's the ICP and then you have the Personas and, you know, no surprise. Sometimes what the founder thinks is good for the company and sometimes what the, you know, certain other individuals think is good for them within the company, they're not exactly the same. And but once again, it gets back to, I know we even have our own intention as we have these conversations internally, right. You know, my perspective is I'm very clear on who our, who our primary customer is. And then the question is, how do you help them, help their employees understand why the platform is so important, why it's important for all of us to be on the same page, why it's important for us to be able to see what's working, what's not working, why it's important for us to have a sense for whether or not the ship is in ship shape or whether there's a hole in the hole and water's pouring through it, or it's clear that there's, you know, there's oil slick behind us. And so either there's gasoline or oil or diesel or something's escaping the boat that's not supposed to escape the boat. What are the implications? Right? And so, you know, helping, helping in my mind, right, helping the founders become better and better at helping everybody in the company understand that, you know, taking care of the ship is really super important because it's what sustains us, right, financially. But even more important than you and I, I don't know if we've had that many conversations on this topic, but as I think I've shared before, you know, there are people who out there believe that, you know, they're looking for that $1 billion, one person company being created. And my perspective is I don't think you want that, right. We're social creatures and so, you know, I wouldn't want a company if it was just me. I love working, you know, with you and the rest of our, you know, our team and so, you know, doing the, helping the founders under, you know, be able to create a company where, you know, people just genuinely love going to work. And you know, back to, you know, the point you were making earlier with regard to dishwasher, you know, in a restaurant, you know, instead of doing that, maybe you can come now and you can go and perhaps you can, you know, be a waiter or be a host or, or, or you know, a cook or something. But take, take, take your skill set to the next level and, and it's not just, you know, good from the perspective of, of, of, of learning something new, but it's almost always an opportunity to make more money, which is not a bad thing. True.

Audra Stanton

[0:26:44]

Yeah. It's interesting. Elon Musk recently, actually, I don't know if it was recently, it might have been a while back he commented he was answering some questions on universal wealth and giving his thoughts. And he mentioned that people ultimately want to do something meaningful with their lives. And so the idea that people are going to be satisfied like sitting at home and not working is probably a false assumption if that's the camp that you're in. And I think to your point, that's your camp. Yes, I know to your point, that's very true. Like work, especially in the United States, has such a profound space in our world as humans. Like that's what we go to school for, that's what we learn how to do. That's what our careers are based off of. And so that notion of like, that's gone now you have like free time and you get a paycheck and that's it. And then you have a couple people out there that are just like the ones creating and doing the work. I don't think that's a very exciting prospect for most people. I think. Yeah, the idea that like an, you know, one person can create that much wealth and revenue is interesting. It's like an interesting concept, right? An interesting idea. Would that make that person happy at the end of the day to do that? My guess is no, it would not. Because the whole fun of work is working with people and the different ideas they bring to the table, the ebbs and flows of, you know, company, you know, just day to day shifts in terms of the market, how you address that, how you think through the problems. When you hit the ceilings doing that alone is such a lonely, lonely place to be. Even if you have an A.I. that's really good, it's still a lonely place to be. And humans need that social connection. One of the funny things, so from my previous life in medicine, one thing that happens a lot is if you're willing to practice in a very remote part of the country, there's all kinds of perks they'll give you, they'll give you like a huge, huge salary, they'll give you loan forgiveness if you have, you know, student debt to try and get people into these, these areas. And I've had a couple of friends over the years who've done this and it never lasts. No matter how good the money is, it never lasts because they always say I'm like, I'm a one woman show in like half the state and I have no colleagues, I have no one to talk to other than the patients. And it's all on me to get everything done and I'm disconnected from everything and it's just not, it's not a good place to be. It's a real problem. Don't get me wrong, it's still a problem that our country has that kind of lack of healthcare in certain parts of the country, and it's an international problem as well. But there is this sense of belonging, of learning from each other, that intellectual challenge you get from hearing other people's ideas and perspectives that I don't see an AI replacing effectively yet or ever. Because there's something about that human connection. It's just important.

Mark Abbott

[0:29:46]

As an old athlete through college, you know, I always like to think about sports and metaphors and, you know, winning, winning, you know, winning a championship with a bunch of, you know, with a bunch of, you know, teammates is like, it's super bloody cool, right? So, you know, winning as a team is extraordinary. And, and you know, if you, if you win by yourself, it's like, okay, so no one, you know, it's like, who do you. Right? You can't celebrate it with anybody. Yeah, you can, you know, kind of, you know, you can talk to people about it, but it's like, yeah, I won this, good for you. Right? Whereas, oh, we did it together. And so there's just something, you know, to me, you know, and I did both team sports and individual. The, the team was much, you know, I loved the team sport. You know, I wrestled, played rugby and played baseball and. Yeah, there's just, you know, winning a wrestling match or even winning a tournament. Yeah, okay, yeah, you go and you know, yeah, we Got some points for the team. You slap high five. But it's so much different when you win. You know, when you're a part of

Audra Stanton

[0:30:56]

a team and the struggle, I think when you're struggling alone versus with the team, like if you're having a bad season and you're not the only one responsible for that and there's people around you to provide support, that, that's a big deal, too, because everyone in their job at some point in time is going to have failure and make mistakes and make decisions that did not end up nearly going the way you hoped. And to be doing that alone is hard. There's an emotional piece to that that as much as you might try and be objective about everything you're doing and leave emotion at the door when you're doing your work, it's impossible to eliminate it 100%. So going through the struggle also with others, I think it goes back to, like, what you write about in terms of tribes. Right. It's not just the good times. It's also getting through the bad times with those people there who are supporting each other that helps you get through the tough times.

Mark Abbott

[0:31:55]

Yeah, well, and, and. And it's having each other to be prepared, you know, for the tough time because, you know, it's, you know, everybody goes through a tough time. Everybody goes through a tough time. Every company goes through a tough time, every department goes through a tough time. Every team goes through a tough time. It's impossible to not have that happen to you. And you're never going to see all the edges right of the moment you're in, which is, you know, we love. We love our Rob Toomey and, and we love our type, coach, partners and, you know, and having, you know, that the person who, you know, sort of sees the human side, have the person who sees the how to get this thing done side, have the person who's capable of seeing, you know, around the corner and has the vision for how to get from here to there, and then having the person who's constantly reminding you that, you know, there's a lot of stuff that we've built that's great, we shouldn't be throwing it away. Right. We should be honoring the rituals and the artifacts of our culture as an example. And so, you know, having, you know, having that team that really can, in a lot of regards, has a strong sense for the edges of the game that's being played. Right. Is very. It's smart and something that should always be appreciated. And I think coming back to AI and whether it's in the product, in service, or whether it's within the company. I think the thing that founders need to remember as we march down through all these decisions in terms of leveraging AI is that it's a tool. Right. And it's a tool that enables us to be more efficient and or more effective. It's a tool that, you know, enables us to become smarter at how we allocate scarce resources, which is kind of a different way of saying what I just said, but that you want to keep the human at the center of the, of the decision as you're going through it. Right. Whether it's the tribe or the department or the company or the individuals. Right. Trying to have that idea of the importance of our team and the love of the game and love of playing the game together, keeping that idea, I think front and center as you make your way through these decisions, it's probably not a bad idea.

Audra Stanton

[0:34:49]

True. You want to think about the humans for sure, and their role versus technology. And I think regardless of if you're an established founder or you're a new one, what role you want, technology, whether it's AI or something else to play versus what you really want and need humans for, is part of the decision making process. Right. And that could be something to do with your product or it could be something, as you pointed out, to do with operations or something entirely different. And I think it comes back to what do people want to do and what's the strength of the AI versus the strength of the human in this particular domain? I think for different verticals it's going to look different. I don't know if an AI can make a good stake. I don't think so. Not yet.

Mark Abbott

[0:35:36]

Well, yeah, I don't know. Right. It's not right now for sure.

Audra Stanton

[0:35:43]

Not yet. Not yet. We're not quite there yet.

Mark Abbott

[0:35:46]

Not there quite yet. But you know, there's a, a steakhouse in town where they have an. Two huge Argentinian grills, right. And you know, they raise and lower the meat to get that perfect crust and the perfect temp and all that kind of stuff. You're like, well, actually, I think AI could probably do that one. Maybe, maybe, you know, and the robot just puts. Right. Robot just puts it on there. The AI sees it. Right. I mean, it's. As you know, I've been working

Audra Stanton

[0:36:18]

on

Mark Abbott

[0:36:19]

a manuscript that's a fable about the unavoidable stages of development. And it goes from, you know, this starts in 2015 and goes to 2035. And so I've Been, you know, for each of the years, especially the, you know, the 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, all the way to 35. It's like, you know, part of. I talk about where the world's going to be and I talk about where technology is going to be. And, you know, it's. It's fascinating to think out, you know, when we think about robots as an example, you know, a lot of us think about, you know, the, those robots, right? But, you know, there's drones, right? Who knows what form factors are going to be here in, you know, with nanotechnology, et cetera, in 20, you know, in 10 years, right. Just sort of thinking about where the technology can go and writing about where technology can go because that forces you, obviously, to think a little bit more deeply. It's been a fascinating mental journey to think out, what's it going to be like in 27, what's it going to be like in 28, what's it going to be like in 29? Et cetera. And, you know, going back to what you and I both talked about, if we keep humanity at the center of the game that we're playing, which is evolving useful information, in my opinion, and helping more and more people thrive and recognizing that we're social, there's going to be absolutely bumps, right. As we move from here to there. But I am deeply optimistic that evolution, right, supports the advancement of useful information, and that's going to enable us to do things that, you know, we hadn't contemplated to address issues like disease that we, you know, just can't do with, deal with today. And, you know, it'll be bumpy, but I think it's gonna be extraordinary. That's just me.

Audra Stanton

[0:38:26]

Yeah, I, I don't disagree. I think there's. There's already, you know, so much application. You know, we're using robots to do surgery. A lot of surgical procedures have robotics now because of the precision. The thing I think that will be interesting is there's certain elements of being human that so far, we haven't had a lot of success recreating in intelligence, one of them being judgment. So to your example with the stakes. Let's say something goes wrong and, you know, the burner ends up too hot. Can there be a sensory mechanism that helps that particular robot determine that that has happened and respond accordingly? That loop of that for us would just be second nature and a reflex. That's like learned behavior based on our experience is not something they have the benefit of, of. Of experiencing. So there is kind of this lack of judgment and some of the other kind of human characteristics that cause us to behave in certain ways that enable us to survive as a species, that inherently we have not been successful recreating an intelligence that are going to be hard just because of our limited understanding of the human brain and how everything is connected and why we make the decisions that we do. We definitely know our motivations for doing those. But how the wiring actually gets to the outcome that you see is something that it hasn't made its way into technology yet. And it will be exciting, I think, for us to start to see, see that next tranche of evolution as the environmental impact on AI plays more of a role. And I think that's where it's going to go next, which is that ability to receive information in the inputs rather than us just typing something in or showing a picture. Can it sense what is around it and what's happening to it and then respond in a way that we would deem appropriate as if it were surviving like a human would? I don't know. It's an exciting thing to kind of think about. But yeah, definitely, I think there will definitely be a progression in that direction over the next couple decades.

Mark Abbott

[0:40:48]

Yeah, I mean an interesting one. Right. You know, I, I love my now past doctor Paul Zak and trust factors. Right. And the whole notion of oxytocin. Right. You know, that's a very human thing. Right. And we use it as a Geiger counter for, you know, sensing trust. And I don't know how you build that, you know, that particular, you know, capability into a robot. Right. Maybe someday there's a, it could actually literally, you know, sniff, you know, increases and decreases in oxytocin levels. But I don't think that's in the near term for sure.

Audra Stanton

[0:41:28]

We'll see. We do a lot of tissue regeneration and there's a lot on the biotech side that's pretty advanced. So I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that we will potentially see that becoming a reality. But yes, it's not the problem we're trying to solve tomorrow.

Mark Abbott

[0:41:48]

No, not today, that's for sure. Any other thoughts on this topic?

Audra Stanton

[0:41:55]

Yeah, so one thing that we didn't talk a lot about that I think is definitely relevant to the discussion of like founders and their decision making process in terms of tech and product is the fear of being left behind. Things advance to the point where now the, the normal state is totally different than it was, you know, 10 years ago, five years ago, because it's it, it is a reality of the way a lot of markets move, that you do get to that new normal state. And if you don't evolve with the market, you're putting your company potentially at risk of becoming irrelevant to what users need. That's what happened to like Blockbuster, right. They didn't evolve, they didn't do what Netflix was able to do. So that I think is an important factor for founders to be aware of, which is keeping an eye on the market, knowing where your users feel most comfortable, but also kind of pushing things in the direction the way the market is moving so that you don't end up having to close your doors because the world has moved on and you have not.

Mark Abbott

[0:43:04]

Yeah, I think, you know, I was there for the whole Blockbuster Netflix in a material way. We actually, my old company owned Blockbuster shares before it was public and we got out of them. I remember a whole investment committee meeting on payphones. And so the question was, how fast is this going to go away? And, um, and, and you know, if you stood back far enough, to me, the math was the trends were fairly clear and you, and, and you know, it wouldn't just. Right. And then the question is, you know, what do you do in the interim? Right? Do you just take the cash flows in or do you try to, you know, reimagine the business? You know, the interesting thing about Reed Hastings and Netflix was it was originally. Right, right. And maybe he tells the story today in a way that makes it better than it truly was at the time. Right. But it was originally Netflix. Right. So it wasn't built to be just delivering DVDs through the mail. It was built to bridge where we were in terms of consuming movies to where he believed the world was going to go once we got the infrastructure better. Right. With the fiber, et cetera. Right. The compression technologies, et cetera. And then, you know, even with his vision, you know, they still had, you know, a major screw up when they basically just just pulled all the DVDs and people got upset. And in hindsight, you know, he says he, if he could do it all over again instead of just ripping the bandage off, he would, you know, sort of let it take, you know, 18 months. I'm just making that number up. But he would have gone, he would have made the transition a little less abrupt. You know, I think it's inevitable if you're going to make a somewhat significant change to how you do things, someone's, some group of people are not going to be happy with it. Right. And as we've talked about before on the podcast. You know, I think if, if, if, if you're someone who's sort of level six from an ego development perspective and you know, you're, you're very much, you're very empathetic and, and you want everybody to get along and everybody to be happy. Those are really hard decisions because you are not going to make everybody happy. It's impossible. Right? So, you know, as founders right now have to decide, you know, you know, what, what kind of change back to change management we had what kind of change, you know, how, how do we go about modifying the way we go, you know, modifying the, the idea of the business, right? Modifying what it does and how it does it and who it is in such a manner that, you know, I hate the term optimized because I don't think, you know, it's, it's like, it's a concept, but it's, it's impossible to optimize but to, you know, do the best you can in terms of navigating it with the least amount of, you know, collateral damage as an example. And, and, and for some businesses, you know, and I think ours is included in this. You know, you literally find yourself with a change that you can feel culturally. And what I mean specifically about that is that, you know, the level of ambiguity, the level of change management stuff, you know, what you, the, the pace and the level of ambiguity that existed for years might abruptly change because all of a sudden now you're, you know, there's this, there's this wolf at your door called AI and it's clear that it's, you know, having a massive impact on the marketplace that you're in. I mean, it's, it's interesting story around Intercom, right, that, you know, that that leadership team, once ChatGPT came out within a month, right, had closed ranks, talked about what the implications are. I mean, really massively bet on the fact that it was, it was not only going to materially either help or hurt their business if they didn't embrace it, but they bet on just going and leveraging ChatGPT. I mean, they, they did not like, they, they, they knew they were betting on that partnership and you know, they had five quarters in a row of negative growth, revenue growth, you know, and now they've done an amazing job with, with, with Fin. And you know, so that's an example of, you know, pretty hardcore change management and hardcore embracing of something that, you know, it wasn't, you know, at that moment in time, I'm sure a lot of people would have thought that's a pretty bold bet, pretty bold move. And obviously it's worked out. So, you know, the, the interesting part of the conversation, sort of bring it all together is, you know, at the core is there are humans and, and, and, and, and. But those humans, you know, specifically in businesses. Right. You know, our fiduciary responsibility, all of ours, is to do what's right for the company, because then if we do what's right for the company over the long term, it'll, it'll, it'll, it'll inure to the vast majority of the, of the employees. But there could be, you know, some employees where, you know, a seat goes away and there's not another seat that either they want or, or that the company can find for them that, that makes sense. And so these are, you know, we're in, we're in a moment of change, and it's got some challenges, but, but, you know, back to the other thing we were talking about, but, you know, when you overcome these challenges and you do it as a team, it's pretty rewarding in multiple ways.

Audra Stanton

[0:49:31]

True, Very true. Well said.

Mark Abbott

[0:49:36]

Well, cool. Well, you know, I'm, I suspect we'll have another AI conversation in the months to come, especially from the product perspective, but anything else before we, we sign off?

Audra Stanton

[0:49:48]

No, I think we landed in a good place.

Mark Abbott

[0:49:51]

Cool, thank you.