How to Build a Good Life While Building a Company

Charles Lee

[0:00:00]

My guest today writes that a good life starts in a foil tray. You'll get what I mean in a second.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:06]

Charles Lee was a kid alone in an immigrant household, heating his parents' restaurant shift TV dinners and quietly altering them, adding what he had, refusing what he had been handed.

Charles Lee

[0:00:18]

He says that that tray is his entire book in miniature.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:22]

Charles is the founder of Ideation.

Charles Lee

[0:00:24]

He worked with Toyota, Sequoia, Google, Tom's. His new book is Design Your Good Life. We talk about his framework. We have an interesting conversation around whether design is even the right word for what he actually does.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:38]

And toward the end, we talk about the ending he chose, driving through the desert with his wife, Tina, asking the only question that mattered. Have we built a good life together?

Charles Lee

[0:00:48]

This is Founders Framework, and I'm Mark Abbott.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:55]

Well, Charles, it's wonderful to meet you and have you on the Founders Framework podcast. Welcome.

Charles Lee

[0:01:01]

Well, thanks for having me, Mark. It's a real pleasure. I'm looking forward to our conversation.

Mark Abbott

[0:01:05]

Yeah, I am as well. So one of the things that I really loved about Design Your Good Life is the way you open the book. You open it with a kid alone in a quiet house learning to alter a foil tray. Walk us into that kitchen before the framework, before the metaphor, just introduce us to the kid and the tray.

Charles Lee

[0:01:32]

Yeah, I think that's a great place to start. When I was young, I came to the States when I was about five years old with my parents. I'm the only child. And because of their desire to try to make their life work here in the United States, I often found myself as a classic latchkey kid. So many nights I would be in the kitchen by myself. My parents were out trying to launch their restaurant. And because of that, um, I, you know, back then I, I, you probably remember, but you know, these Swanson foiled dinners and, you know, fried chicken and, uh, you know, came with a little dessert, a little, uh, like a peach cobbler or something like that. And, and I would, I, you know, after a few times you kind of get sick of it and I would try to figure out a way to. reimagine the meal so whatever was kind of left over from the restaurant and I would try to put these in and back then it was really we didn't have a microwave it was just literally a classic oven that we would have to heat it up in and every night I would try to mix things up bring in a new protein or add some you know uh, special kind of hot sauce or, uh, and that was my way of, I didn't realize it, you know, till later in life, but that was, I think that was my way of trying to be creative with the situation and trying to figure out, is there a new way to look at this dish? And so that just became kind of a daily, weekly practice of adding new ingredients, taking things out. And so that was kind of the beginning of my childhood, um, thinking about how to solve for something to make it a little bit more interesting.

Mark Abbott

[0:03:11]

Yeah. And did that then start to sort of, you know, walk us through how that, that experience sort of starts to help, uh, form this thing called the journey of your life? Yeah.

Charles Lee

[0:03:27]

I mean, it's one of those things when you're a kid, you just do things cause you do things and you don't know any better. Uh, I think over time I had really, um, not just, you know, learn directly from my parents, but probably more caught than taught. on how to build stuff and how to think about, you know, problem solving and how to think about like new perspectives of looking at something. And so I feel like that was more out of scarcity and need, honestly, early on. And over time, I think I started to build this kind of the skillset required to provide new solutions, provide new perspectives. Uh, and so that was just kind of the early inklings. And I can't say anything, uh, anything at that age was strategic. Uh, but it was definitely, uh, from hindsight, definitely a foundation for how I think and live today.

Mark Abbott

[0:04:20]

Yeah. Your, your mother, right. Um, and maybe it was your father and your mother, but she had a bunch of adventures, right? Yeah. And, uh, and so I suspect, uh, some of those, those ventures formed your work.

Charles Lee

[0:04:34]

Absolutely. I learned a lot from both of my parents. To look at it now, I'm thoroughly impressed at how they came to a brand new country, didn't speak the language, and was able to build several well-known franchises in the Korean American restaurant market. from scratch and the way that they had to navigate. I can't imagine like going to a different country where I don't speak the language, say I moved to India or something and starting something like that, that would be just so overwhelming.

Mark Abbott

[0:05:08]

Yeah, I have one of the podcasts we've done are friends of mine who actually started as clients years and years ago. And their story is about their, their dad leaving Cuba with nothing, right? It basically, you know, at the transition into the Castro regime. And, and it was basically he had to get out of there or else the family was very concerned. he would go to jail. And so, you know, that's the beginning. And they tell the story, you know, extraordinarily well about how the father just started, you know, doing whatever he could. Um, and ultimately he started to, you know, uh, uh, actually take fruits up to New York from Miami and then, you know, next thing, next, next thing. And now it's a hundred million dollar business. And, um, you know, and it's, uh, it's, it's, it's a classic, you know, American slash immigrant story. And I mean, it's funny because, you know, the entire story of America's immigrants, but. Yeah.

Charles Lee

[0:06:17]

Yeah, absolutely. So you've got another interesting part of your story, I think, which is. you went from co-founding Laundry Love, right?

Mark Abbott

[0:06:28]

Yep. Which, if my memory serves me, was a not-for-profit, is that true?

Charles Lee

[0:06:33]

Correct. Yes.

Mark Abbott

[0:06:35]

Yeah. And so you do the not-for-profit thing and then all of a sudden, you know, the story transition and you're doing work with likes of Toyota and Sequoia and, you know, most people who start not-for-profit creative work don't end up in that room. What was the door and what almost kept you from walking through it?

Charles Lee

[0:07:00]

I've always been curious because my parents and all of the entrepreneurial ventures that they had, I saw really like the cost and the pain of being an entrepreneur. It cost them their marriage. I think it impacted my relationship with them. Fortunately, those were all kind of reconciled in later years. But I think seeing that I just kind of ran the other way. I studied philosophy in grad school, you know, initially worked as a professor while, you know, starting various, helping friends with their ventures, and then as well as non-profit ventures like Laundry Love. And as I was doing that, there was this thing called social media that came to be. I feel like I'm aging myself now. And I was a super early adopter for things like YouTube, all the various social channels. I remember telling college students about this thing called Facebook. So this was years ago. And I started playing with and I saw pretty early on the potential and the power behind that. And so I started doing social experiments around cause-related type of efforts. So we, you know, started to organize things like international flash mobs in 27 cities on the same day. And this was all with people I had never met. People I was just conversing via email or chat. And I saw, man, there was a community forming and I had learned a lot about how to maybe move people to care about something. And a few brands started picking up on what I was doing. And back then, if you recall, it was called guerrilla marketing. I think in the earliest days of social, like, nonprofits did much better in motivating, inspiring, and moving people to do something online. And so Brands started hiring me to say, hey, can you help us think about how to kind of grill and market some of the products and services they had and take some of the lessons from even nonprofit organizations. And so that was kind of an aha moment. And it was just one of those, you know, unique seasons where everything I touch scaled. And because of that, I actually had to go into therapy because I didn't have enough hours in the day to do everything I was doing from teaching to nonprofit to consulting. And ultimately, my therapist basically said, what are you best in your world at?

Mark Abbott

[0:09:24]

Yeah.

Charles Lee

[0:09:25]

Um, and then she even added on, on top of this and she said, what do you do? Like that's innately a skillset or superpower that you might even take for granted. And my answer was, I think I could take complex ideas, break it down to digestible pieces and use it to scale stuff like companies and organizations. And so out of everything I was doing, it was really a lot of the consulting work that made sense. Um, and I quickly pivoted and, um, fortunately my wife was working corporate, uh, at the time. And I said, Hey, can you give me 18 months to build a company that focuses on execution? And that's how kind of kickstarted the business and, uh, just kind of took the plunge. And I had some early mentors. I was very fortunate, you know, people like, uh, Seth Godin, uh, and others took interest in some of my work. And I remember him. I think this is around the time when he came out with his book, Tribes, or right before, while he was working on it. And he said, Charles, don't offer the world anything. Just contribute great content, write aloud about the pain of execution, and keep doing that for a few years until people start asking, so what do you actually do? So I ended up organizing about 15 conferences over three years around the country and built kind of a big reputation around answering the pain of execution. And so that's how I launched. Eventually people started asking, so what do you do? And that's when I said, hey, we're helping executives execute better with strategic clarity and smart brand execution. And so we'd launch with large clients to start with in year one, which was crazy. Oh, that's an awesome story. What year are we, plus or minus?

Mark Abbott

[0:11:08]

Yeah.

Charles Lee

[0:11:08]

So, um, the company officially launched around 2009. Uh, I think we really started gaining traction around 2012. Uh, we'll be 17 this year. And in the earlier years, it was, uh, it was really hard cause it took all of my life savings. My wife and I just kind of sacrificing and saying, if this doesn't work in 18 months, it's a no-go. I'll just keep teaching. Uh, and so it was, uh, it was a risk. I don't always recommend my approach. Fortunately, it panned out. By year two, we had most major brands coming to our events. Wow.

Mark Abbott

[0:11:44]

Yeah. And so, um, it sounds like before starting the company, before I should say the conversation with your wife and the 18 months, uh, you were a solopreneur. Is that kind of fair to say?

Charles Lee

[0:11:59]

Yeah, absolutely.

Mark Abbott

[0:12:00]

Yeah. And then when you started the company, did you have, um, did you have a vision for what you were building or was it just, you know, you know, like You know, tell, walk us into that. Charles's brain, what year again? It's 2000 and- 2009. 2009. Yeah. What were you thinking?

Charles Lee

[0:12:23]

I think, I mean, we had young kids, so this, everything was chaotic as far as like lack of time, so many things pulling in multiple directions. And so basically what I did was basically after our kids went to bed around 9 p.m. or so, I would work from 9 to around 2 a.m. about four to five days a week. So I did the math and I realized that would give me about a thousand more hours to work on something meaningful. And thankfully, it was the early days of social media, which meant a lot of people were on there late at night. People of all different levels of leadership from C-level, C-suite people to others trying out things like Twitter and, you know, Facebook. And, you know, so you had this unique, like, season where people were truly social on social media because it was such a new thing. And so I took advantage of that and started to build really good relationships. Started to just continually write a ton of content around just identifying some of the challenges of executing well. And it was kind of in those stages where basically I just built a network. And I think the convening actually helped not only increase It's kind of fun because I come from more academics. I had taught for about nine years leading up to that period. And I learned so much about, you know, educational effectiveness and workshops for professors. And I was sitting at a conference one day and thinking, man, this is horrible learning experience.

Mark Abbott

[0:13:58]

Right?

Charles Lee

[0:13:58]

A talking head, you know, um, often with con- about content that you could read about from the person speaking.

Mark Abbott

[0:14:06]

Yeah.

Charles Lee

[0:14:06]

And so I go, what if we flip that script and turned it into more of a practitioner-based conversation and have excellent facilitators who can engage people in the crowd? And, um, we started to, uh, move towards just not having keynotes. but we would have interactive on-stage things. Back then, we were probably one of the first to do text live-stream, and then text to stage with questions, and people were blown away. Not only the technology, but the access to people.

Mark Abbott

[0:14:36]

Yeah.

Charles Lee

[0:14:37]

That just created the momentum, and I could invite most speakers and make sure that I could curate the relationship so they found a win. uh, that I've always made sure that they would meet, uh, people that were relevant to their own ventures at the event. And our team was focused on connecting people more than the content. And that just kind of became a snowball effect and everyone wanted to be there. And so that's how I kind of started the business. And then whenever I would travel to invite only private dinners, I would pay for with, uh, You know, you can imagine the credit line and the debt I was in until people started asking, so what do you do outside of events? And that's when we actually launched the business. So it was, it was, I don't know if it was like, it was intentional, but there had to be some luck involved for sure.

Mark Abbott

[0:15:33]

Yeah. So when you started doing the events, did you have employees or was it just contract? Or, you know, walk me through the journey in terms of, cause I don't know how familiar you are with my work, but I'm fascinated by the stages of development, you know, companies. founders journeys and individuals journeys as well from a developmental perspective. So, so, you know, 2009, 2010, what's, what do we have? And it sounds like it took several years before the events turn actually into a revenue generating business of any significance.

Charles Lee

[0:16:10]

Correct. Yeah, at that time, it was me and some contractors I would hire around events. Thankfully, I had some really generous friends who are contractors that believed in what I was doing and loved what was happening. And then the combination of even speakers call in a lot of favors at the beginning, but worked really hard to make it valuable for them. So the intentionality of both participants and speakers coming to our events, I would hire some people to say, hey, let's research who's coming to our events and let's see who they should meet possibly. That might be a benefit. And we would, our team would go make introductions for them and do those kinds of things. And so it was highly curated type of experiences. And so once we started on actual projects, when we moved beyond events, That's when I think my initial sense was like I was going to build a firm that had a lot of employees. And pretty quickly within the first few years, I think we were up to almost 30 employees and about 20 companies. How many customers now? I think it was like probably around 2014, 15 or so, you know, so about 10 years ago. And I'm sure you've seen it in a lot of founders is I was the primary salesperson for all the projects. And generating revenue for 25, 30 people who are very well paid people is not an easy feat for a service company.

Mark Abbott

[0:17:48]

Yeah.

Charles Lee

[0:17:49]

You know, and so it was a grind. I think I was flying over 250,000 miles a year. Uh, we had to hit pretty significant revenue numbers. Um, and then on top of that handling, you know, some of the HR challenges, even for a small company of that size, it was pretty daunting. And so. The shift for me came when, around that time, my wife actually worked at a large corporation, handled procurement, a lot of the finance strategy, and we were able to hire her away from that business. And one of her primary tasks was actually to create a different model for work. So obviously pre-COVID and leading up to COVID, we changed the model where we drastically, we spun off some former employees and encouraged them to start their own companies because, you know, the gig economy was all the talk back then. So we're like, hey, let's embrace that. Let's help you set you up so you can be successful in your own ventures and we'll still hire you as a sister company. So we kind of built that model where now we actually have less than 10, but we have like 40 to 50 contractors, many of whom are, you know, the majority are former employees of ours. So we created that ecosystem. And when COVID happened, I think all of our clients kind of caught up with that understanding of this kind of more dispersed network of people that have been vetted. And so most of our clients now just ask us to formulate a team that we trust because we have the reputation and the portfolio based on what they need for that moment. And that's how we've been kind of running our business of late. And that's been great because it allows us to kind of fluctuate, manage some of our own living life rhythms. And now that we're empty nesters recently, we now have the ability to even go harder in some areas because it gives us enough flexibility to build teams around unique projects.

Mark Abbott

[0:19:58]

Yeah. And so what's the nature of the work today?

Charles Lee

[0:20:02]

Yeah, so we have two main, two sides of our business. One is around strategic clarity work. So that's the area that I primarily work in along with other consultants that we have. Anything around like business innovation, problem solving, really achieving clarity for maybe a specific executive or their entire department. And then we also have a creative studio. So we have a design team, we have marketers, content folks, and such. And back when I started it, it was really... Executives had a pain point because they had ideas that they needed to flesh out and they had to either go to one of the big four strategy firms or go to one of the big four creative agencies. And so I saw a low end of the market disruption opportunity where early on in the process, these executive leaders didn't necessarily either have the budget or the immediate surrounding people to flesh out some of their concepts. And so often executives will use us on the early end and that's kind of the pitch so that they can then pitch it effectively internally through an executive committee or a board to get the tight level of funding and either keep us on to help them manage the actual execution portion and we could fill gaps or go to the big firms at that point. So we found kind of a low end opportunity that, you know, still has great margin, has great, great opportunity. And once executives have you in their back pocket, they've historically just took us with them wherever they went.

Mark Abbott

[0:21:38]

Oh, that's awesome.

Charles Lee

[0:21:39]

Yeah, because it accelerated their careers as well.

Mark Abbott

[0:21:43]

So when's the Spark framework come along? Yeah.

Charles Lee

[0:21:47]

So the book, Design Your Good Life, that just came out, I wrote it because I wanted a book that was both kind of professional and professional fulfillment alignment to take place. And so, yeah, it's written in basically like three various phases of going from sparking an idea all the way to building legacy. So Spark is primarily written for people who feel like there's something on the horizon. They're not quite sure. They feel like a transition is emerging. and they want to figure out how to get back engaged. And so each of these phases have a particular mindset, a skill set to develop, a particular drive to focus on, and an outcome to pursue. So for example, Spark is all around the mindset of curiosity, and you've probably read a lot in this area as well of just the brain science of the benefits, physical health benefits, the mental health benefits, what autonomy does in your life.

Mark Abbott

[0:22:43]

Longevity, by the way. Yeah, exactly.

Charles Lee

[0:22:45]

Longevity benefits and all of these elements to kind of re-engage curiosity if you're thinking about sparking something and then ideating from that. So that's Spark, like actualizes the next phase that talks about all about execution. If you feel like there's a directional purpose in your life, maybe not a perfect one, but it kind of seems like you're going in a direction, that whole section of the book is around, here's some of the ways to move from a proof of concept to creating a proof of value behind something you want to do. And then if you could create value beyond concepts, then you can walk into rooms with a level of confidence. that you actually have proven that you know what you're bringing to the table. And then the last phase is a phase I'm super excited about. I feel like there's not enough writing, and I hope more people write in this area, is this idea of influence and really stewarding the resources that you have, the connections that you have, the thought leadership that you have. to create more lasting impact than moving from being the best in the world in something to be the best for the world in something. And so that's kind of like the idea of building legacy.

Mark Abbott

[0:23:50]

I totally get it. We'll get into that even more. One of the things I like about, you know, the concept here is you know, um, most, you know, purpose books skip from action to confidence and lose the loop, right? And you talk about putting proof in the middle, right? And what I think is interesting is, um, and I talk a lot about this internally. I talk a lot about it with clients. I write about it. Confidence and confidence, they're not the same thing, right? And, um, and, and, and it's the combination that's powerful, right? Uh, there are a lot of people out there, uh, that are confident, but actually not competent. Um, and, uh, you know, uh, we could refer to those people on occasion as condom, right? Um, and so there's, you know, they got a lot of, there's a lot of people that are out there playing confidence games, but they're really not competent, right? And then the side is, you know, which I, which is, you know, I think part of the point you're making here is there are competent people who just, for whatever reason, don't have confidence, right? They're really good at something, but they don't have the confidence, and it could be part of who they are, some insecurities. It could be a part of who they hang with, right? It could be a part of who they lean into and leverage, as an example. Um, and so, you know, it's like you could be extraordinarily confident and write a great book, but if you don't know how to get the book distributed, right, it's the classic, does a, does a tree make noise when it falls in the forest and no one's there? And the answer is yes, it does. We know that. Um, but the point is still valid, right?

Charles Lee

[0:25:38]

Which is we all.

Mark Abbott

[0:25:41]

you know, to create anything of deep value, I like to say that it really requires deep and lasting value. It requires four archetypes. There's the thinker, the feeler, the doer, and the critic or the guardian, right? And the, you know, the, the, the thinker, you know,

Charles Lee

[0:25:58]

just ideas in themselves are worthless, right?

Mark Abbott

[0:26:01]

But then you bring along, uh, the, the, uh, you know, the feeler, which is like, you know, that idea, it's a, it's a really good idea, but you know, I don't think you've, and this is what I think you guys have done for years now, you correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you've done a good job of positioning it, of developing the story, the framework, right? The way to, you know, compelling and useful. That's important work. Now, okay, we've done those two things, but now we actually got to do the work to get it out into the world, right? Whether it's the work you were doing from 9 p.m. to 2 a.m. in the morning, right? That grinding and doing it out there. And then as we're going through this journey, because by the way, we want to create something that's enduring, right? We need those guardians, those critics to say, hey, guys, right? Maybe you're losing, you know, you're losing velocity or maybe you're losing aim or something's going wrong. Right. But I talk about this probably too much lately because, you know, there's all this energy around the concept of, you know, a single entrepreneur getting building a billion dollar, you know, enterprise. And I'm like, that's so sad. Right. You know, this is a journey. And once you become really good at something that now it's, you know, Imagine just loving playing that game, right? For years and years and developing the compounding, not just associated with the competency, but you know, the network, the confidence, et cetera, right? So it's a journey and we're social creatures and, you know, let's, let's, let's, let's figure out a way to, you know, to, to, to, to build great value. and enjoy the heck out of the journey because that's what it's all about. Right. And so, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's funny when you look at the stages of development associated with a company, you know, a lot of people get excited about the idea and I just dig, dig, dig, dig, dig, dig into it and you can have a vision of a, you know, of a, of a, of a of an engineer as an example, right? Just coding, coding, coding, but actually never creating anything that becomes, you know, useful enough for a business to actually form and then for the business to become useful enough that a company forms. Yeah.

Charles Lee

[0:28:20]

Yeah, I think you're right. I think, uh, it sounds very simple at a high level if you just go for it, but there's so many variables. And, um, I'm sure you get this question a lot. I get often like young or new entrepreneurs that come and say, Hey, can I get coffee with you? I want to, you know, they'll sometimes directly say, Hey, I want to build something like you built. And I'm like, it's such a hard, and they ask, how did you do it? I can say, I could tell you how I did it. But it may be completely different because the set of circumstances and my background environment created the type of company that I lead right now. But for someone else right now starting, they couldn't mimic it or nor would I ever recommend it because social works differently now, networking feels different now. the way you generate revenue. There's some basic fundamental rules, but still like the landscape is constantly changing. I could, you know, I feel like the challenges today without our reputation would be daunting to find new clients in this environment, but we've been able to thrive through whether COVID or other seasons, probably because of the work we built in building proof around problem solving. But if it wasn't for that and I was a new company, I think that'd be incredibly challenging to get it off the ground.

Mark Abbott

[0:29:44]

Yeah, it's the old metaphor, right? You never walk into the same river. Yeah. You know, one of the things that I, you know, write about, teach is there really, I believe there are five types of entrepreneurs. And, and so that's a whole nother dimension to a conversation like this, right?

Charles Lee

[0:30:02]

There are entrepreneurs who have these amazing visions about where the world's going to be in five to 10 years.

Mark Abbott

[0:30:07]

Then there are entrepreneurs who are just basically, and you know those names, right? We can talk about jobs, we can talk about Elon, we can talk about people. Everybody has a vision of those humans. And then you have the disruptors like the Sam Waltons, right? Who an industry already exists and it's like, no, we can do this so much better. And, and those, those are entrepreneurs who end up, you know, sort of taking the founder path, right? Wanting to build. And because they want to build something, if they're deeply committed to it, right? I've been working plus or minus 80 hours a week for 44 years now, right? I mean, it's just, and it's not for everybody, right? And then you have lifestyle entrepreneurs who, I like to think of them as craftspeople. They're really good at a craft. And they want, you know, they want to have control of their life and, and be great at something, but they're not about building a, you know, a big company that has to grow or else, you know, everything grows or dies. Right. So they just don't want to put that one on.

Charles Lee

[0:31:09]

And, and then, you know, you have, um, accidental entrepreneurs, right. Which we're not talking about when we're talking about this person. People ask you things, but, you know, you just wake up one day and you got a business because you had to put food on the table.

Mark Abbott

[0:31:21]

Right.

Charles Lee

[0:31:22]

And then my last favorite is the opportunists, right? The people who are just trying to figure out make a buck and they don't care about building a company at all.

Mark Abbott

[0:31:29]

Right. Yeah. So, you know, when you have these conversations with people, there's, like you said, there's so many different dimensions to the conversation. And, uh, you know, it goes back a little bit to, you know, your therapist, right? What, what, you know, not only what are you uniquely great at, but what, what, what would you like to do for the rest of your life? Right.

Charles Lee

[0:31:51]

Yeah, I love that. I love that question. I mean, I realize, like, people's superpowers is probably often a skill that they probably take for granted. Assume everybody else can do it, you know? Yeah, yeah. I, you know, I told, I distinctly remember telling my therapist, like, I think I'm good at like breaking down complex ideas and building it, but I feel like everybody else knows how to do that. And that was my false assumption. And she was like, what are you talking about? And I just needed somebody on the outside to kind of re-articulate to me, what is it that I actually do well? And I think that was kind of an aha moment is that, you know, if there are things that a person does really innately well, that's something, that's a skill that you could continue to build and really accelerate it in a way that other people can't. And so I think identifying it and having an external thought partner to think through some of these items are super helpful. And since that day I've always had like coaches and other Mentors and I see because I just can't see things that are so close to me I just need other people to help articulate that for me Yeah, the expression is that we use a lot as you can't read the label from inside a jar Yeah, you know and and you know strategic coach.

Mark Abbott

[0:33:10]

Are you familiar strategic coach? Yeah, yeah, right. So they have they literally have a whole a A part of their business is literally to help entrepreneurs get real clear around what their superpowers are. And, uh, and then, you know, it's, uh, once you sort of have that understanding, then, you know, it can, it helps inform, you know, what you, what you focus on and what you look to others for, right? And, uh, and, and that just, you know, once again, gets back to taking that special, those special skills and compounding them. And obviously, you know, everybody knows, most people know that compounding is pretty powerful. I refer to it as the, you know, the eighth wonder of the world. Um, and, uh, um, and, and, uh, I always think about that. One part of the book, you talked about Kobe Bryant and, uh, what he taught you.

Charles Lee

[0:34:15]

Yeah, fortunately living in Southern California while originally from New York. I mean, Kobe is so, he was bigger than life. And I would recall, you know, because my daughter and my son both grew up playing basketball and My daughter's a year, I think she's a year younger than what Gigi was. And so we would end up in basketball tournaments where Kobe was just kind of on the sideline being a dad, being a coach to his, you know, team of girls. And often they would play either before or after the game that my daughter's team was on. And just watching him where, in that moment, he respectfully asked people to let him be a dad. And it was just kind of good to see him outside of the spotlight. He would quietly come in through the back, leave through the back, say hi to people, be kind. But it was really about his girl at that time. And it was just a good reminder that, look, life, you could be very successful in one thing and totally ignore the things that matter most to you. And I remember talking to another entrepreneurial friend of mine years ago and he asked me, you know, what matters most to you? And I told him, like, I think my family is definitely one of the top things that matter to me because I came from a home that really didn't have vacations or everyone was just working, working, working. And I felt like I didn't have the kind of childhood that I wish I would have had, but at the same time I gained a lot because of the childhood I had. And my friend asked this one question and it was kind of hit me right in the middle of my forehead, it felt like. And he said, are you as creative with your family as you are your clients? And it was like, ouch, you know, I hate you for asking that question. But he's like, if it matters to you, what kind of work are you putting in to make sure, you know, your kids and your spouse feels that they actually matter in your life? And so that was a good gauge just to constantly remind me like, hey, if it matters, I need to invest in things that really matter when it's all said and done. And some of the things that I thought mattered in, you know, in business really doesn't after the years. So that, that was a little bit of perspective. And Kobe was just kind of a good reminder, like even as someone who has every opportunity to be the center of attention, intentionally chose not to in those environments because it was about Gigi, not him.

Mark Abbott

[0:36:41]

So there's, there's one thing in the book that I want to push on a little bit, and you and I have already talked about it a little bit. I forewarned you I was going to go here.

Charles Lee

[0:36:52]

So the, the book treats the good life as designable.

Mark Abbott

[0:36:56]

Yeah. I think it's all about development. Okay. And I think the difference matters. And the self that designs, you know, at 30 isn't the self that designs at 50, right? And most important transitions aren't redesigns, but they're sort of, you were talking about it earlier, right? There, you go from being someone who's really focused on achievement. I'm a huge fan of Loebinger's stages of ego development. So, you know, you actually, in some, you know, most people get to the stage of belonging where they genuinely need to belong to learn about themselves and to learn about others and how to get along. And they go into that stage because when they were just throwing fits, which is the controlling stage, stage three, right? No one wanted to hang out with them. And it's like, this is no fun, right? So you go into belonging and then at some point, you know, the tribe just, you know, wants to do things or thinks things that you don't necessarily want to do or agree with. And you want to, you talked a little bit about this earlier, you want to sort of have a you know, autonomy and agency. So then it's like, you know, I want to, I want to become better, right? I want to become more competent and confident. So you move into that, the achievement stage. But then at some point, you know, and it happens for most people, you step on a few toes to get some stuff, or you appreciate some people as much as you should, right? And you're like, you know, I gotta be better, right? And so you move from the achievement phase to the empathy phase where it's like, look, you know, I need to appreciate people around me. I need to show up more for my family. And so, you know, that happens. And then if you're a founder, or even a CEO or a leader, at some point you're like, look, not everybody deserves to be on this team. It could be cultural, it could be competency, it could be a whole host of things. And you're like, you know, this empathy thing, I think I've over-indexed on it. Right. And I need to move on to the next stage, which is really aligning myself with like-minded people, you know, values wise, you know, if you're comfortable with them, goals wise, you're comfortable with them, the pace that you want to, you know, build and do things, you know, you're comfortable with them. And, and so that's, that's, that's, that's stage seven, you know, and then, and then when you get to eight, it gets into what you were talking about, you know, in terms of stewardship, right? It's like, okay, so how do I make the world you know, a better place? How do I, you know, help a bunch of different people connect and just, you know, and, and, and, you know, one and make one plus one equaling three, right? How does design your good life relate to the points I'm making here?

Charles Lee

[0:39:57]

Yeah, I think the, I intentionally did use the word design because I feel like design is really about intentional thinking around a problem. For example, like even in visual creative design that we do, it usually solves a problem, whether it is helping the viewer or the reader get to a particular action more quickly, or it may be to open up new ways of thinking or imagination simply by the way that artwork is placed, for example, or words are placed. And so I intentionally did move away from words like build or create. Uh, for that purpose. And I think it actually is pretty complimentary to your word of development because even in development, you need a particular approach to development or thought about development. So design isn't like a phase. I think it's a constant posture one takes to solve for things. So maybe design speaks to all of those areas because in each area you're going to have to think intentionally about all the touch points of development. So I think it's pretty of a complementary term. I think it's coming from a philosophical background for me is it's just foundational that You know, if human beings could be intentional and conscious about the way that they're viewing reality and how their beliefs are formed and something that undergirds any type of process or phase you go into, kind of starts with that posture to say, hey, whatever this challenge is, whatever this desire is, I probably need to be more thoughtful and intentional and self-aware to even start the journey with the community or for myself.

Mark Abbott

[0:41:46]

Yeah. Yeah. And, and the, and the point, you know, when I, when I think about it and when I looked at it, it seemed to me that the design is, it, it leads one to think that, you know, you just design your life as opposed to- Yeah. Yeah.

Charles Lee

[0:42:00]

Correct.

Mark Abbott

[0:42:00]

Exactly. You're actually designing for the moment, right? To do whatever is necessary to sort of, you know, I would say win that stage of development, whether you're a company- Yeah, that's correct. Yep. Whether you're a human being, right? Um, with the idea, which once again, we've, you've talked about, we've talked about with the idea of, you know, this being a lifelong journey and with curiosity, um, being something that, um, you know, you, you'd love to be blessed to be, um, deeply curious and productive at a hundred years old, um, in my opinion. Um, and I think, you know, A lot of people, I would love for more and more people to understand that work is actually fulfilling, can be fulfilling, that you want to surround yourself with people that you enjoy working with, that retirement's kind of silly because you're no longer engaging your brain in a way Um, you know, uh, you know, I mean, I love being around younger people and challenged by them. Um, and, and, and, and, you know, not just mentoring, but every now and then getting, you know, getting my head handed to me in terms of stupid things. Um, trust me, it happens a lot. Uh, but just, right. You know, it's interesting because you're thinking about design both in terms of the moment, but also in terms of the

Charles Lee

[0:43:33]

Yeah, I think it's a supporting idea to what you've laid out, which is really great and powerful. Um, and yeah, it's just a reminder and you're right at a surface level, if people are not thinking about the contest, it could appear like, Hey, I'm just going to sit down and design a life I want. No, that's definitely not how it works.

Mark Abbott

[0:43:50]

And you and I both have a few years under our belt to know that in the early stages and And, and, you know, my, my deep belief is every one of us goes through these stages. There's a lot, a lot of research on it. Right. And so, and then understanding where you are and, you know, if you're interested in that next stage, whether it's for you or for your company, um, or for your family, right. And for life, it's, uh, you know, self and others awareness. And it's like, here's where we are. Here's where we want to go. Here's what we got to work on right now. As I said, getting out of the empathy stage I think is hard for a lot of people who are wired for empathy. And I get it, right? I mean, we all go through it. So, you know, I over indexed on the, and then, you know, you end up paying for it because all of a sudden, you know, you have some people that are in leadership positions that are like, they're not the best for the company. And they're actually not the best for their colleagues. And they're not the best for their employees. They're really good humans, but back to the competency that's necessary for them to do their job well. Oh, so the whole, you know, company can, can row, um, at a certain clip because, you know, you're always, my son rode high school and, you know, you're, you're only as fast as your, as your weakest, you know, rower. And so, um, so, you know, eventually you get into that, oh man, I'm over out of empathy, indexing on empathy. So the book ends with you and, uh, your wife's name's Tia. Yep. Yep. Driving through the desert. And you ask her, have we built a good life together? Yeah. What's, what's your thinking around the book ending there? And, and, and did you explore with other endings or is that like, no, that just nailed it. And I knew it from the very beginning.

Charles Lee

[0:45:38]

Yeah, that was probably the hardest question because, you know, I'm not trying to be a guru or someone who is wiser than anyone else. I think for me, writing a book with that title sounded either incredibly arrogant or just audacious. And so for me, my wife has always been kind of the plumb line of, hey, is this real or not? Because if it's not real, I don't want to finish writing this, you know? And so reflecting back, I was grateful that she didn't just like knee-jerk react. Yeah, of course we have a good life. She actually paused. and she thought about it. And it was probably the longest handful of seconds in my life because it all kind of hinged on that. When the rubber meets the road, does your life actually align to and matter or does it resonate with the people that you most love? And so for me to hear from her that eventually she came around and said, look, I think we have a really good life. We have a great relationship with our kids. They're both adult kids now. We've built and created wealth, but we're also giving it away. We're able to contribute to causes we believe in. And because we've intentionally built a kind of life where resources we've collected intentionally for those purposes or, you know, we have great friendships. We have people I think generally like to be connected with us for whatever reason. I think we have, we've displayed a certain amount of hopefully character and consistency and integrity. And so she's like, yeah, it's not a perfect life, but it is a good one. And I think we're good in the world, more importantly. And so for me, it was just kind of an incredible, not just validator, but it was kind of a reality check to just say, hey, if I'm going to write a book like this, I'm not claiming to have a perfect life at all. I have so many deficiencies. But even if you have a lot of deficiencies, you can still kind of design the kind of life where either others or even yourself would say, you know what, that's actually a good life. I have people who care about me. And I feel like I'm contributing beyond myself to others around me and the world. So, um, yeah, I thought that was kind of fitting.

Mark Abbott

[0:48:04]

Um, it could have ended the other way and totally sabotage the whole project, but. Oh, well, so much for that book.

Charles Lee

[0:48:15]

I know. I would have called you up and say, Mark, can you just like put your name on this and finish the book? It's yours. Well, but.

Mark Abbott

[0:48:25]

You know, it's interesting. I, uh, as a, as a, as a writer and someone who sort of is obsessive around quality, I deeply believe words matter and I grapple over them all the time. Right. And so it's, as an example, and, and, and my punchline is I think good's a good word. Right. Um, because, you know, as an example for founders, You know, I would love for founders to end up building exceptional companies and for that journey. from an idea to an exceptional company, uh, to not be filled with too many moments where you wake up just going, WTF, I can't stand. I hate company. I hate the moment I'm in. I'm grinding. I'm unhappy. I've got all this crap all around me. It's chaos. It's how did I end up getting here? I can't believe I built this bloody thing or I put myself in this position. And you know, there's, that happens way more than most people understand. Um, because most people, you know, obviously don't are crazy enough to start and build companies. It's almost, I don't know what percentage I should do the research on this since we have 18,500 plus, you know, entrepreneurs running on, you know, our platform. But, you know, having coached 60, 70 leadership teams invested over a hundred companies sat on, God knows, 30 plus boards.

Charles Lee

[0:49:59]

I mean, it's all the time, right?

Mark Abbott

[0:50:01]

Where you go through, you used the term seasons earlier, right? Where you go through these seasons where it's just like, this isn't what I wanted to do. And it almost, you have to be extraordinarily tenacious. You have to be extraordinarily resilient. And ultimately, you get to a place where you get better and better at surrounding yourself with people that actually make it easier and easier. And as you talked about, having coaches or family members you can talk to or you know, or fellow in a peer group, you know, as an example, to just sort of help you through some of these, some of these moments. But, but, you know, so, you know, I've struggled with the word exceptional for companies, you know, as an example. You know, great. I don't know why I like exceptional because exceptional just means you're exceptional, right? You're, you're not the norm, right? So build a company where people actually genuinely love, you know, love to go to work and, and actually care about the work that you're doing to me is, is pretty important stuff. Um, When you think about the book, just to close up here, what's the one question, you know, or takeaway you hope a reader still is holding and thinking about six months after they put it down?

Charles Lee

[0:51:20]

Yeah, I think it is a question of like, at the end of the day, what matters most to you? And I think that's kind of a recentering, whether as it relates to your purpose or your actions or your mindset, the skills you're developing. I truly desire people to live a fulfilled life. And I think the book is there because if you're not paying attention, life just starts to drift away from what you really value and what you really want to become. And it's a quiet nudge that says, hey, let's stay focused on what really matters to you. Do your values matter? Do the things you think about, the way you view the world matter? Do your relationships matter? And so when people can kind of keep resonating on that idea of what things really matter, and I ought to spend some time on those things regularly, I think that's hopefully the takeaway from the book is, look, it's not a formula, it's a framework. It's designed to help you think through different, you know, seasons of your life. Uh, but beyond that is like, do what matters to you when it's all said and done, because that's valuable to you and it's probably the best version of you for the world.

Mark Abbott

[0:52:40]

So keep checking in, make sure you're feeling good about the journey where you are. Um, and, uh, you know, I like to think about the, Oscar Wilde's book, A Picture of Dorian Gray, which is a movie twice, right? And In the Attic was a picture and the more of a scoundrel he became, the more the portrait sort of became extraordinarily ugly. But he was beautiful on the outside, but not so on the inside. And I think constantly checking in and making sure you feel good about where you are and what you're doing and, you know, how you're not just showing up in the world. But personally, you know, for founders, I want them to feel like, you know, they're they're making the world a better place. So I appreciate the book. I appreciate this time. This has been very fun and enjoyable. I'm glad to meet you.

Charles Lee

[0:53:33]

Likewise. It's been a pleasure, Mark.