Leading in the Age of Actualization

Cole Abbott

[0:00:10]

For thousands of years, work has defined us. But have we truly grasped its potential? Today we're standing on the threshold of a new age. Work 9.0, the era of self actualization. But what does it take for visionary leaders to guide humanity towards the next frontier? And are you, as an enlightened founder, prepared to lead this evolution?

Mark Abbott

[0:00:31]

Well, I, I'm not going to sit here and claim the enlightened founder mantle or crown or whatever the hell it is.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:39]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:00:39]

Get a gold star.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:40]

Gold star, exactly. But yeah, I, I, I'm, I'm prepared to be part of the conversation. I want to be part of the conversation.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:50]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:50]

I think that, you know, this is why spent five years writing know work 9.0. It's to push this conversation along. It's to push people, specifically founders, in terms of really thinking through the impact that they can have on us taking the human journey to the next level. It's more specific, as you said, in terms of getting more and more of us feeling like we genuinely enjoy living, we genuinely enjoy making the world better, we genuinely enjoy doing work, and we genuinely enjoy creating environments where others enjoy, you know, doing the work. Because, you know, as I've been writing about for a long time now, I don't believe you can self actualize without doing work, without mattering, without making things better. And I think that's innate in who we are forever. Work in progress as a individuals, as a family, as a team, as a company, as a society for sure. But yeah, I think, you know, the long arc of what we're doing is focused on making things better. And ultimately that that involves work. And so we should do work that we genuinely love doing.

Cole Abbott

[0:02:18]

Crucial element of great leadership is awareness. You talk about the moment we're in as a critical junction in human history.

Mark Abbott

[0:02:26]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:02:27]

Can you unpack exactly what makes this moment so unique and urgent for leaders?

Mark Abbott

[0:02:34]

Well.

Mark Abbott

[0:02:36]

That'S a deep subject. So I believe, and as I wrote about, we're coming out of the age of information. We're coming out of it because we've done this amazing job of collecting information and making it available for all practical purposes, for virtually free, Right. On the Internet, as an example, as a part of that whole journey that we've taken recently. There's so much information out there that we're overwhelmed by it. And, and I believe that overwhelm that we've all experienced is part of what's pushed us, propelled us, made us want to shift from work 7.0, which is the age of information, to work 8.0, which is the age of understanding all this stuff and as you said, you know, putting us on the path to get to work, 9.0, which is where you genuinely have a bunch of people who feel like they're self actualizing, they're doing really good work that they love doing. Not to go too dark, but every single time you transition from one age to another, you are upsetting the status quo you're on. You're literally changing things that a lot of people have become personally invested in. We see this across all sorts of elements of life, of society. So we see this in terms of the media obviously being huge, what traditional media being hugely disrupted by this new age. You look at all the tension that's going on inside of government and whether you call, whether it's doge or whether it's just, are we doing things as well as we could be doing, are we being efficient and effective or are we basically protecting that which is no longer useful, right? So you've got all these areas where there's a lot of status that is, are being challenged. So there's, there's media, there's government, there are a lot of other institutions right now that are being challenged. The tariffs is all about challenging economic relationships, right? The universities, right. There's a lot of pressure on. Is this right? Is this really the best way for us, to us to work? Is this really the best thing for are we designed the most effectively and efficiently for living up to our responsibilities, our charter, how we make the world a better place? So I believe that we're going through a transition that's challenging a lot of quote unquote status quo. AI is part of this whole transition. And because we are threatening, because it, because society, because the way things are evolving is threatening all these different quote unquote institutions, I actually, actually believe there's going to be a lot of turmoil associated with the age of understanding. There's gotten a lot to be arm wrestling and reconciliations and, and people competing for, you know, sort of a winning narrative for lack of a better expression. And you know, I, I, I believe we're in a, you know, I, I believe it's not going to be an easy transition, but I deeply believe that we will come out of it over the long run in amazing place because we will better understand things. We'll be, we'll have better technologies, better insights, better perspectives, more evolved perspectives. So I think 8.0 is going to be hard. But I, you know, when I started writing work 9.0, I did not have a point of view on When I think work 9.0 will start to actually materialize for any, in any significant manner, I actually have a, you know, it's just a stupid crystal ball. But you know, I believe plus OR minus, in 10 years we're going to come out and be in a much better position than we are today. But I believe it's going to be harder between now and 10 years from now.

Cole Abbott

[0:07:02]

But 10 years, it's all great and flowery and amazing.

Mark Abbott

[0:07:07]

Well, the simple answer is no. But I believe that for more and more people within the world.

Mark Abbott

[0:07:18]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:07:19]

Whether you look at it on a country basis or a regional basis, or however you look at it, I do believe we'll start, we'll start to see an uptick in the percentage of people that genuinely, you know, are flourishing, for lack of a better term, who genuinely believe that they are self actualizing.

Cole Abbott

[0:07:39]

And then on the whole, even if you're not in that part of your journey, you're still on a trajectory to get closer to being at that stage.

Mark Abbott

[0:07:48]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:07:48]

And, and so a word I don't really like is hope because it, hope to me has issues in that you're relying on someone else as opposed to taking responsibility for yourself. But I believe that more and more people will see that and appreciate that they're on a journey that is likely to end up with them feeling really good about where, who they are and where they are and where they're going.

Cole Abbott

[0:08:28]

So directionally optimistic.

Mark Abbott

[0:08:30]

Directionally optimistic, yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:08:32]

All right.

Mark Abbott

[0:08:32]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:08:33]

Do you see sort of some people that are going to be in a better position than others to really lean into the things moving into the next stage?

Mark Abbott

[0:08:43]

Yes.

Cole Abbott

[0:08:45]

And there's gonna be a lot of people that are resistant, more attached to the status quo.

Mark Abbott

[0:08:48]

Yes.

Cole Abbott

[0:08:48]

Do you see that sort of stratification between those two groups? Right. Overly simplify it into two groups.

Mark Abbott

[0:08:57]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:08:57]

Do you see that causing a lot of the issues over the next 10 years?

Mark Abbott

[0:09:00]

Yeah, because I, I, I, you know, it, you know, let's go, let's go down to, you know, the age old cultural stuff. Right. Which is individual versus group.

Mark Abbott

[0:09:10]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:09:11]

You are going to have people fighting for the groups.

Mark Abbott

[0:09:16]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:09:16]

And taking away the agency of the individual. That's, that's a cultural thing.

Mark Abbott

[0:09:22]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:09:23]

And so there will, I do not see us reconciling the group versus individual tension within the, with, with, with within the next 10 years.

Mark Abbott

[0:09:30]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:09:31]

That tension is always going to be there. And there will be those who would rather use the, the phrase a lot. There will be those who would rather belong and have comfort than have agency.

Cole Abbott

[0:09:48]

And.

Mark Abbott

[0:09:50]

Struggle in order to get more of what they want.

Mark Abbott

[0:09:54]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:09:55]

So I think that's. That, that that tension is not going to go away. And because of that, you. There's no way that we will ever reconcile the fact that some people are better at other people at certain types of things. We cannot make everybody the same.

Mark Abbott

[0:10:16]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:10:16]

What's a good thing that we have? Some people are really good at some stuff and other people that are really good at other things. And we should celebrate diversity of perspectives so that one thing doesn't just go off on its own. Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:10:27]

So, so giving up agency for, you know, for sameness is insane because it's, there's, there's. It's an impossible, completely ridiculous concept.

Mark Abbott

[0:10:41]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:10:41]

Which I think we've talked about before.

Mark Abbott

[0:10:43]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:10:43]

Was Kurt Vonnegut's short story where, you know, if you were smarter or better looking or stronger or any of these things. Right. Society would handicap you to the point where you were all the same. And you know, it can never be. You can never, you can't have that happen without taking away people's unalienable rights. And a lot of stories, sci fi.

Cole Abbott

[0:11:13]

Dystopian stuff about this.

Mark Abbott

[0:11:14]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:11:14]

Like so many. I mean.

Mark Abbott

[0:11:16]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:11:16]

There's tons of movies and stories that are. Go down this rabbit hole.

Cole Abbott

[0:11:20]

Yeah. And I think any of the founding fathers sort of thing where it's like you don't sacrifice freedom for safety or whatever. Right. That's not the right way to phrase it, but yeah. I think they're all kind of that thing and that's why this country exists. Yes. But you want to incentivize agency, give people that power to pull themselves up. Right. And go back to your thing on hope. Hope is sort of like, oh, let's just sit back and probably make things worse. For myself, just wish for the off chance that something is going to turn out better for me of someone else's doing.

Mark Abbott

[0:11:59]

Yes.

Cole Abbott

[0:12:00]

And it's like that doesn't. That's not really a good strategy. And you. I think everyone kind of knows that's not a good strategy. But it's a lot easier to just be comfortable and feel safe than it is to step into the unknown.

Mark Abbott

[0:12:13]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:12:14]

Step into the chasm between stages of work.

Mark Abbott

[0:12:17]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:12:18]

Right. And see what's going on. And ideally lead people that will don't have the, you could say the privilege of leading themselves.

Mark Abbott

[0:12:29]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:12:29]

Because there are people that struggle here, whether it's personality or situation or whatever. And those who can do it have, I would say, a responsibility to Help others through that journey, through that unknown.

Mark Abbott

[0:12:39]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:12:40]

Noblesse oblige, right? And, and it's, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's mas laws, it's Lovingers, right? Maslows is like, yes, we, we do pass through these stages. We, you know, we have to, you know, get level one to be okay at, right? We have food, we have water, right? And then security, and then belonging and then self esteem and then self actualization. You just don't all of a sudden end up itself actualized, right? Just like in Lovingers, you have to pass through the stages of fighting for yourself. Stage three, right? Stage four, belonging. Stage five, starting to have your own points of view, right, etc. Etc. So if you're focused on trying to meet everybody at the belonging stage and that's it, right? Then those who want to move beyond are being suppressed or worse, right? And so back to the point is in the original question is, there will always be differences in who we are. There will always be, you know, levels of comp and competency. There will always be people that are great at some stuff and not great at other things. And it's a fool's game to try to eliminate diversity. And it sounds so obvious, right? It's a fool's game to stamp out exceptional capabilities, right? No one's sitting here saying, we've talked about this before, that everybody in the NBA, right, if they're, if they're tall, we need to do something to make them shorter, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. We all, we love watching sports, we love watching competition, we love watching exceptional performance. And yet for some strange reason, right, because some people over index on comfort and security and what's good for the group, we end up with, you know, some of these what I think are, you know, silly conversations. But I understand, right? I, I empathize.

Mark Abbott

[0:14:43]

Why?

Mark Abbott

[0:14:44]

Because we should back to noblesse oblige. We should help people make their way through these and we should help people sort of, you know, march up Maslov's hierarchy, right? We should help people pass through loving your stages of development and get to get to level five and six and seven. We should do those things. Absolutely right. But we should not give up all those things for everybody being the exact same at everything, which is not good.

Cole Abbott

[0:15:18]

For the group in the long actually, just.

Mark Abbott

[0:15:23]

Because it's impossible.

Cole Abbott

[0:15:23]

Mediocrity is an interesting example of you just do the whole group thing and it's like, oh, wow, it just evolves well consistently.

Mark Abbott

[0:15:30]

Let's bring in Another topic that we talk a lot about, entropy.

Cole Abbott

[0:15:33]

Right. Yeah. But if you just. So if you just keep everything that's visible at status quo, at average there's gonna be entropic forces in the background that are eating everything else that's not visible, and you're actually just going to start deteriorating a thousand percent. And it's at a very fast rate. Yeah, right. Like, it takes a lot of advancement to just maybe. I'm sure there's someone has a theory on this. Yeah, there's a lot of advancement to just combat entropy a hundred percent. So you just go with the average thing. It's like, just give me a nosedive.

Mark Abbott

[0:16:08]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:16:08]

Because what, what, what tends to happen in order to. And I have a whole series of. An essay series coming out on this.

Mark Abbott

[0:16:15]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:16:16]

Substack on substack.

Cole Abbott

[0:16:18]

Yes, we'll put a link to substack in the description.

Mark Abbott

[0:16:21]

So really fascinating about, you know, why societies tend to fall apart over the long run.

Mark Abbott

[0:16:30]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:16:30]

And that is that they. It's. People want to matter, and in particular, people in bureaucracies want to matter. And so they take on more and they make things more complicated. That complications then becomes complexity. And at some point things become so complex that you can't keep them up anymore and entropy just crashes the whole system.

Mark Abbott

[0:16:51]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:16:52]

Mayans, you know, the Romans. You can go down, right. A bunch of different historical examples.

Cole Abbott

[0:16:59]

A lot of story examples, too.

Mark Abbott

[0:17:01]

A lot of story examples.

Cole Abbott

[0:17:02]

Dark Knight Rises, great example of that. Things got too complex. You have too many lies going on, like what's true, what's not true. And then the system literally erodes from underneath.

Mark Abbott

[0:17:11]

Yes, right.

Cole Abbott

[0:17:12]

Bane builds out all the caverns.

Mark Abbott

[0:17:14]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:17:14]

And then bombs it and everything implodes.

Mark Abbott

[0:17:16]

Yeah, Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:17:17]

Because you're building everything on a lie and it's all these things you're trying to spin, keep moving. And so even though on the surface it seems like everything's going well. Right. They don't need a wartime police chief and all that. It's like, no, every. Everything is. Is falling because the structure has rusted.

Mark Abbott

[0:17:35]

Yeah, yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:17:36]

And so the big point here is, is, you know, things either grow or die. And if you think you can just maintain this, like this, that what you're doing is in order to maintain that you're actually building more structure and complication underneath it. And then at some point.

Mark Abbott

[0:17:55]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:17:56]

It just falls apart.

Cole Abbott

[0:17:57]

Yeah. Is that another example in terms of real life that people try to do is you see a lot of people in the fitness space.

Mark Abbott

[0:18:06]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:18:06]

Like, oh, I want to try Something. And then it's like, well, there's a little bit of a side effect there. So you try to combat it with another supplement or something.

Mark Abbott

[0:18:12]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:18:12]

And then, well, then that has another side. So you add another thing. You have this whole polypharmacy system going and then something in that whole change breaks and then moving on.

Mark Abbott

[0:18:23]

Yeah, yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:18:25]

So you've distinguished between simply under simply succeeding and truly mastering. Visionary leaders often seek significance beyond traditional metrics. How can leaders reframe success to focus on significance and mat mattering, especially as we move into this new age?

Mark Abbott

[0:18:43]

I actually have another series coming out that I just started to work on called why. And it's interesting, Right. And I'm just, I'm just going down all the deep rabbit holes on this. And so it could take, you know, a month or two or three before this actually gets published, or I could end up deciding this is just too much. But, you know, the first real question that, you know, little kids start to ask is why, Right? Why are we doing this? Why does this matter? Why do you think that way?

Cole Abbott

[0:19:15]

Why do they ask that?

Mark Abbott

[0:19:17]

Why do they ask that?

Mark Abbott

[0:19:18]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:19:19]

And ultimately, you know, I believe that part of our responsibilities as a leader is to be able to have a really good answer to the, the pertinent why questions.

Mark Abbott

[0:19:37]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:19:38]

Why are we doing this? Why are we serving this icp?

Mark Abbott

[0:19:41]

Why?

Mark Abbott

[0:19:42]

Why does this, why is this our compelling value proposition? Why do we have these goals? Why is our culture the way it is?

Mark Abbott

[0:19:50]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:19:51]

You know, why are, why is the world the way it is? Why are we evolving the way we are? You know, and, and so, you know, getting back to your question, I, I, I believe that especially with things becoming a little bit more complex, which is what is always happening until, right. Less is more until it's not, and then it collapses. But if we want to avoid major, major disruption in the trajectory of things all the way down to the company level, Right. We need to be really good leaders at answering the questions why? And, and sometimes we don't have the answers yet. And so that's a good thing to work on.

Cole Abbott

[0:20:38]

It's kind of, we talked about it a lot, but it kind of goes back to the idea of building on bedrock, like, what is the most permanent thing that you have?

Mark Abbott

[0:20:45]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:20:46]

And so if you're focusing on the why behind everything, making sure everything aligns with that.

Mark Abbott

[0:20:51]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:20:52]

Versus, oh, well, Wall street said this last week, we need to do this now.

Mark Abbott

[0:20:58]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:20:58]

It's like, huh, which of those is going to lead to consistent, sustainable long term success?

Mark Abbott

[0:21:04]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:21:05]

Right. You actually perform better in the market probably if you focus on your why.

Mark Abbott

[0:21:10]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:21:11]

Than you focus on Wall street or the news or whatever. And there's be a lot of people that like to play the current game.

Mark Abbott

[0:21:17]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:21:18]

They just really enjoyed taking those things and making that work and taking advantage of those situations. But that's gonna, A, burn you out and B, that's some. Someone else can come along that's a little bit more efficient at that than you.

Mark Abbott

[0:21:34]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:21:34]

Has a cheaper labor cost.

Mark Abbott

[0:21:35]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:21:36]

And can just exploit that whole thing a lot better.

Mark Abbott

[0:21:38]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:21:38]

Well, it gets back to, you know, I think you, you, you talked about it in one of our podcasts. If you don't understand why you're. You're doing the things that you're doing and you're just copying other people. Right. And, and they're continuing to evolve with a very clear sense for why they're doing the things, you're all of a sudden going to wake up one day and you're like, well, I mean, I don't even know where I am. I'm lost. They've just completely outplayed me entirely. I, I can't just continue to copy them. Copy them, copy them. Because they just made this right move, right. Right turn, move. That was just like, I'm sitting here, left in the dust.

Cole Abbott

[0:22:16]

Yeah. Because if they're doing right, a lot of people just want to copy Apple.

Mark Abbott

[0:22:20]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:22:21]

Like, well, they did this and then they did this and it's like, okay, well, if you do that, you make shoes or whatever, right. And they do a really weird technical, like, right turn. Like, oh, well, we can't really do that. And then now you're just caught on an island. Or worst case, something breaks in your system, Right. You don't know how to fix it because you don't know why.

Mark Abbott

[0:22:37]

You don't even know why you, you don't even know why you are where you are because you just copied someone.

Cole Abbott

[0:22:41]

Yeah. Then so you just get caught out on the thing.

Mark Abbott

[0:22:43]

Like, well, shoot.

Cole Abbott

[0:22:44]

Right. Or maybe you had a bunch of people from another organization that came in and kind of implemented their thing there. Well, what happens if those five people leave?

Mark Abbott

[0:22:52]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:22:52]

And you're like, I don't know how to rebuild even to where we are. I don't even know how we got here.

Mark Abbott

[0:22:56]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:22:57]

So how am I supposed to move forward? You're just lost in the desert with no compass, no map, nothing, because you just followed people.

Mark Abbott

[0:23:04]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:23:05]

And then they just, poof, disappeared.

Mark Abbott

[0:23:07]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:23:07]

And you're like, well, right, that's going to be you then.

Mark Abbott

[0:23:11]

Right. And that's why, you know, I know we're touching on things we've already touched on in previous podcasts, but if, you know, the, the forever agreements are there to create a foundation and that. And that those foundational agreements provide, you know, it's essentially a northern constellation on. Okay, you know, we're doing this because of this. We're doing this because of this. We're doing this because of this. And those are all answers to why questions.

Mark Abbott

[0:23:40]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:23:40]

And so those fundamental questions are, you know, why? Well, you know, because we're. This is our icp.

Mark Abbott

[0:23:45]

Well, why?

Mark Abbott

[0:23:46]

Because this is our compelling value proposition.

Mark Abbott

[0:23:48]

Well, why?

Mark Abbott

[0:23:49]

Because this is how we decided that we're going to make the world a better place.

Mark Abbott

[0:23:52]

Right. Well, why?

Mark Abbott

[0:23:54]

You know, this is. This is why we decided that, you know, we were going to go this direction and focus on these particular objectives in order to advance our cause, in order to advance our compelling why. And these things are consistent with it. So these, you know, forever agreements are foundational to being able to answer why related questions.

Cole Abbott

[0:24:22]

And having those be explicit for the whole company is very important.

Mark Abbott

[0:24:25]

Yeah. So that everybody in the company can get, you know, has this northern constellation shining bright, bright for them and look up and say, no, this, you know, this is why. And then, by the way, they now have what they need to question things. Oh, wait a second. Why are we doing that if this is, you know, what we said was important? And back to why the word why is so powerful, you know, it enables us to check one another and have a real clear conversation around whether or not something makes sense. Because we understand these really super important.

Cole Abbott

[0:25:12]

Why questions and helps build an element of trust both between people and also between different parts of the organization.

Mark Abbott

[0:25:22]

Not just different parts of the organization. Back to what we talk about a lot is developing high trust relationships with all of your ideal stakeholders, Builders.

Cole Abbott

[0:25:30]

Yeah, but. Right, so if I know everyone in the company is aligned and understands and is fully aware of the forever agreements, if I have somebody who makes, you know, let's say a leader who makes a slip on something, then someone on their team, you're like, well, I thought we were doing this.

Mark Abbott

[0:25:45]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:25:45]

It's like, oh, good point. Right. Whereas if you just implicitly trust that the leaders get it, and then you're like, well, I don't worry about the rest of the company.

Mark Abbott

[0:25:54]

Right, Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:25:54]

You're all on a different operating system, different framework. Well, if something does happen, there's no check there. There's no balancing out of, well, maybe Because I think everyone's gonna have a moment where something impulsive happens. They didn't, didn't eat breakfast.

Mark Abbott

[0:26:08]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:26:08]

Something stupid happened.

Mark Abbott

[0:26:09]

Whatever.

Cole Abbott

[0:26:09]

They didn't sleep well. Get a little ornery. And then you're like, well this. And this one's like, no, how. This is what we said. And then you're like, oh, okay, well thank you for keeping me in check there.

Mark Abbott

[0:26:23]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:26:23]

And then as a leader, that those are, those are awesome moments for you to display that none of us are perfect.

Mark Abbott

[0:26:30]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:26:30]

And so for you to say thank you.

Mark Abbott

[0:26:32]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:26:33]

And, and, and, and, and for you to not be creating this, this culture where all of our leaders are omniperfect, omnipresent, whatever.

Mark Abbott

[0:26:44]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:26:44]

It's like no.

Mark Abbott

[0:26:45]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:26:46]

And, and you know, maybe I'm overly sensitive to this, but you know, please don't make me feel like I've got to be perfect because I am damn well not perfect. And if you're, if you're, if you're trying to act like I'm perfect and expecting me to be perfect, we've got a big problem. Because you know, I'm going to make mistakes and I need you to help me see if I'm making a mistake. That's part of truly caring about the company.

Mark Abbott

[0:27:18]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:27:18]

Company first, you know, team or department second, you know, team third. Right. Individual fourth. Because ultimately the company is the ship that's carrying us all and, and, and helping us provide for our families and helping us maintain high trust relationships with all of our ideal stakeholders. So yeah, you know, abdicating responsibility because you expect someone to be perfect is just Right. That's a bad in, especially inside a commercial operation. Commercial organization. Right. That's just a, that's just a bad dynamic to, you know, address sooner rather than later.

Mark Abbott

[0:27:58]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:27:58]

Well, and in a commercial opera operation you can break it down into what behaviors do you want to incentivize? I guess like, well, they're not gonna.

Mark Abbott

[0:28:06]

Do that to you.

Cole Abbott

[0:28:07]

It's like, well, probably not do that to somebody else. And it's would then reflect on yourself as a leader and hopefully you're self aware enough and ego evolved enough to be like, to understand that, well, if I get corrected here, that's in the best interest of the company and everyone within the company.

Mark Abbott

[0:28:21]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:28:22]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:28:22]

We're not here to serve my ego. We're here to serve all of our ideal stakeholders.

Mark Abbott

[0:28:26]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:28:28]

And so having those corrections is a good thing.

Mark Abbott

[0:28:31]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:28:31]

And you don't want to squash any of that out.

Mark Abbott

[0:28:33]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:28:34]

That's, that's bad. Right. And that will create a lot of people starting to form and secrets within internally.

Mark Abbott

[0:28:43]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:28:43]

Like why. Don't want to. I don't want to scare somebody. So I'm just gonna tuck this away and put under the rug.

Mark Abbott

[0:28:47]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:28:47]

And then 10 years later it comes out. It's like, ha. Well, this is. This is really fun. This just completely, you know, there's a pile of. Or a death pit or whatever. Watching succession. And that's like a whole thing there. Yeah, Right. It's like, ah, we won't say anything because that's. We're gonna hope that it works out for the best. And if. Even if that situation plays out well, that practice and that set of behaviors, that culture, sooner or later it's gonna implode.

Mark Abbott

[0:29:14]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:29:14]

You emphasize trust as a cornerstone in evolving organizations.

Mark Abbott

[0:29:19]

Three dimensions. Character, competency and connection.

Cole Abbott

[0:29:22]

What are the tangible steps visionary leaders can take to build and restore trust within the organizations?

Mark Abbott

[0:29:28]

Character, competency and connection. So, right, the character is that, you know, what we say, we walk our talk, we. Our intentions are clear. We live up to our commitments, our agreements. If we fail, we acknowledge that. So we have the character stuff.

Cole Abbott

[0:29:54]

You adhere to the principles.

Mark Abbott

[0:29:56]

Adhere to the principles. Whole nother conversation. Competency is we put people into positions where they're comp. Genuinely competent. If we stretch, we acknowledge that we're stretching. And then we do the best to see whether or not they can fulfill. They can take the. Stretch that gap and eliminate it Right. Within a relatively reasonable period of time. For us, it's 90 days is our general framework. So that's competency. And then connection is culture and its goals and its ambition and its interests and all the things that I write about in. In that series. Connections is the most complex.

Mark Abbott

[0:30:41]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:30:42]

But ultimately it's getting everybody aligned around the importance of character, the importance of competency, the importance of connection. And as the company evolves.

Mark Abbott

[0:30:57]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:30:58]

We are continuously working on those things because as the company evolves from stage one to stage two to stage three to stage four to stage five, what is important? The skills and competencies to be developed. In particular, the goals, they change. And at each stage, you know, we talk about strategy and strategies. Basically, you know, I think of strategy is very simple. It's about winning, Right. And I know a lot. Some people don't like that concept.

Mark Abbott

[0:31:31]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:31:32]

Winnings mean.

Mark Abbott

[0:31:33]

Exactly. But there's a. There's a very, very clear version of winning in stage one. It's product market fit. There's a very clear version of winning in stage two in. And it's taking that product market fit and proving that you can repeat it.

Mark Abbott

[0:31:51]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:31:52]

There's a very clear version of winning in stage three, There's a very clear version of winning in stage four, and there's a very clear version of winning in stage five. The how you win in stage five is entirely different than how you win in stage one. And what it requires is a higher and higher level of goals. It requires a higher and higher level of competency. The competencies are not just about a human. The competencies are about the entire system.

Mark Abbott

[0:32:22]

Right. The.

Mark Abbott

[0:32:22]

And, and so, you know, the, the back to ideal stakeholders and high trust character competencing connection in terms of what's important given where you are developmentally. Does that make sense? And, and to me, it's. It's how you win the game you're playing. And each stage is a different game.

Cole Abbott

[0:32:47]

Like trust, I would say like trust, success, being healthy or being successful, whatever. All those are symptoms of you having the right behaviors for the game that you're trying to play. Yeah, right. It's like, oh, you're successful. It's like, no, that's not like a destination. That's a result of things that is. Is temporary. Just like trust is. Right. You could do all the things well to achieve trust. And you're like, oh, I got trust, I'm good now. And do whatever. It's like it doesn't work. So you get healthy, like cool, and then stop those behaviors. Well, that's not really going to work anymore.

Mark Abbott

[0:33:21]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:33:21]

Once again, bringing back, bringing entropy back into the conversation.

Mark Abbott

[0:33:25]

Right?

Mark Abbott

[0:33:26]

Yeah, you, you just don't get here and all of a sudden you're there.

Cole Abbott

[0:33:29]

I was like, you made it to that stage and it's like, well, it's like to put it into video game terms like we made to a certain level now. It's, you know, just stop at the thing. It's like, well, if it just keeps going, you. It's a. It's harder. But you've accumulated all the points, whatever, and skills and things that you need to move forward. But if you just get thrown in there, you're gonna lose. And that's. That's be the same in any professionals that write sports. You just get thrown into the pro league when you're 12. It's like, oh, that's gonna. You're going to die, right? Or lose all your confidence and then you're not going to develop. Yeah, right.

Mark Abbott

[0:34:04]

And then the other thing is. And this is the tension, right? The other thing back. This is what I'm writing About in my complexity series.

Mark Abbott

[0:34:13]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:34:13]

But, you know, I, I, I, as you know, I've never been a video game player.

Cole Abbott

[0:34:18]

I, I, I, I understand the frameworks, but I, I haven't video game in 10 years.

Mark Abbott

[0:34:24]

I probably did, what, four hours for you growing up? Maybe five hours.

Cole Abbott

[0:34:27]

I, you bought a, you bought a Halo Xbox. I remember that transparent thing, green thing. It was cool.

Mark Abbott

[0:34:33]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:34:33]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:34:34]

But the point here is, is that whether it's an individual or a group or a team or a company or society.

Mark Abbott

[0:34:44]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:34:45]

You, you, let's just say using the video analogy, you get to level four.

Mark Abbott

[0:34:49]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:34:51]

And, and, and you stop playing. You know, you stop, like, you, you, you don't want to take on the challenge of getting to level five.

Mark Abbott

[0:34:58]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:34:59]

You're gonna get bored.

Mark Abbott

[0:35:01]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:35:01]

Playing level four all the time, and you're gonna lose dis, you're gonna lose interest in it, and you're just gonna stop playing.

Cole Abbott

[0:35:07]

Well, if you look at it from us, because I think you have to view everything socially.

Mark Abbott

[0:35:11]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:35:11]

So let's say you're playing, you, you have a esports team or whatever called.

Mark Abbott

[0:35:16]

Right?

Mark Abbott

[0:35:16]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:35:16]

There's five of you, and four of the people are off. They're advancing, they're pushing hard, they're growing. And then one person's like, I'm really comfortable at level three. That's not good for the team. And option one is that, well, then how the team just kind of sucks because one guy is not very good.

Mark Abbott

[0:35:35]

Yeah. Because you're only as good as your weakest link.

Cole Abbott

[0:35:38]

Or you're just playing with four people. Right. Because you just either let that guy die and then that's, that character's out of the things. Like, well, now we're just, you know, down a man.

Mark Abbott

[0:35:48]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:35:48]

You know, power play for everybody else kind of a thing. Or they just kick you out.

Mark Abbott

[0:35:52]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:35:52]

And then. Well, now, now you're removed from the game. Right. If your goal is to win across the summation of games.

Mark Abbott

[0:35:58]

Yes.

Cole Abbott

[0:35:59]

Which I would say that's like, that's playing the infinite game. Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:36:01]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:36:01]

If you get kicked out of the game, well, then you're out. You're not playing any game. And video games are a very interesting arena because so much money is invested into the psychology behind it.

Mark Abbott

[0:36:15]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:36:15]

So it's actually a really good way to. So it's really analogous to how things work in an ideal sense.

Mark Abbott

[0:36:21]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:36:22]

So it's like, oh, we just did all these things to make this work. So it really feeds back, you know, the dopamine reward system for people. Well, this is how that would look like packaged with fantasy stuff or guns or whatever. Right, Right. So while most people don't, a lot of people don't play the things, it's like there's still so much to learn from that because I. There's obvious. There's so much money into it.

Mark Abbott

[0:36:45]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:36:46]

And most of it comes back to really tapping into the, the psychology behind all that. And so if you understand that structure well, then you can, you can gamify a lot of things. Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:36:56]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:36:57]

Just an interesting parallel.

Mark Abbott

[0:36:59]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:37:00]

The ultimate destination you outline in work 9.0 or is work 9.0. Right. The stage book centered around self actualization. Can you define what self actualization looks like at the organizational level?

Mark Abbott

[0:37:17]

Yeah, I think self actualization at the organizational level is where you've built a company that is capable of regeneration and growth. So it's not dependent upon you, the founder. Right. It's not dependent upon any one individual. The company has become a thing that self actualizes, quote, unquote, on its own because it has evolved to the place where the principles are clear, the values are clear, the forever agreements are clear. The whole organization is deeply invested in protecting the things that truly matter, that are truly at the soul of the company. And you know, as Warren Buffett would say, you know, it's. It's become an organization that could survive a fool being the leader because it's almost inevitable. If it's been around for a long time, decades, it's going to have some foolish leader. Right. For whatever reason, and maybe the board made a mistake, the CEO, you know, wanted to replace him or herself with their, the yin to their Yang. But now all of a sudden, the company no longer has a visionary leader who has a sense for where the world's going and how the company fits into the world that's going to exist in their minds in five to ten years, etc. So the self, the self, a self actualizing company is one that's not dependent on any particular individual for long term success. Does that make sense?

Cole Abbott

[0:39:14]

Yeah, I think the yin Yang thing is interesting because you have a Yang, has a leader, and wants to surround themselves with a bunch of yins.

Mark Abbott

[0:39:20]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:39:21]

Because that works.

Mark Abbott

[0:39:21]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:39:22]

When they have a company of yins and then you replace the Yang with the yin and it's like, oh, right, you just pulled that whole crucial component out of the company and it's like, well, yes, it's going to cause a lot of issues.

Mark Abbott

[0:39:37]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:39:37]

But it's also a pretty easy thing to solve if you know what to look for.

Mark Abbott

[0:39:40]

Right, right.

Cole Abbott

[0:39:41]

And so if you have a. When the organization becomes healthy enough, it basically functions like an organism. It has an organic quality to it.

Mark Abbott

[0:39:51]

Complex adaptive system.

Cole Abbott

[0:39:52]

Yes. So when it has that complex adaptive system and it's working effectively and efficiently, it's gonna be very easy to see when something is wrong. Right. Like horribly wrong. And hopefully it's, you know, we have all our principles, we have our forever agreements.

Mark Abbott

[0:40:09]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:40:10]

And we can discern that quickly and address it appropriately. And if we are at that stage, we've probably seen something like this happened before or somebody on the team has seen this somewhere before. Because it's hard to imagine a situation in a large organization where people either didn't grow along with it or didn't grow along with something else at another place. A lot of times was like, okay, the leadership team is washed. We got to just bring in, you know, we're getting a new CEO. They're going to bring in their people and, and try to take it, revive it. You know, it's a little bit of a transplant thing there.

Mark Abbott

[0:40:43]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:40:44]

And sometimes you need to do that. But those, that thing that you transplanted, that organ had to grow in something else. Right. It's not like that. Just poof. So we just go hire a bunch of Harvard MBAs. The company straight out of school. Like, no, I don't think anyone wants to do that. Right, Right. I think it gets that just there's no experience there. You haven't seen that, you haven't grown.

Mark Abbott

[0:41:05]

With the thing and there's no context. And so, you know, I think, you know, when I look at 90 and our evolution, you know, they're what I've been trying to instill from a cultural perspective. And I'm, I, you know, I'm doing, hopefully I'm doing better job of articulating it these days is as an example, su succeed or escalate.

Mark Abbott

[0:41:30]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:41:31]

We all know what we're, you know, hopefully everybody has a decent, who's been here for a while. Right. Has a decent sense for our whys, has a decent sense for, you know, how we divide and conquer, has a decent sense for the need for progress, the need for us to align, define, execute, why we're doing these things. And anyone in the company who sees issues, right. They need to bring those issues up. They have a forum. They can bring them up either in a weekly meeting or they can bring them up in a 1 to 1. And if they feel like their issues are not being appropriately addressed.

Mark Abbott

[0:42:16]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:42:17]

Our culture absolutely needs to be One where they can say, hey, right. I just don't feel like I'm being listened to.

Mark Abbott

[0:42:24]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:42:25]

Can I take this to the next level? Now? If their concerns are completely in alignment.

Mark Abbott

[0:42:32]

With who we are. Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:42:34]

Well then it moves fluidly through the system.

Mark Abbott

[0:42:36]

Our, our principles, our, our, our, our forever agreements. Someone you know is going to say, you're right. Now they may be of an opinion that their issue is like a really important issue, but they may be actually wrong.

Mark Abbott

[0:42:56]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:42:58]

They may actually have a point of view that's not consistent with who we are. They may want us to, you know, just do something that's not what we would do. And at that point in time, right. They've got a decision. Does. Okay, so I disagree with this. I'm just my opinion strongly held. But we understand their disagreement. We just don't believe that what they're proposing or what they're worrying about is who we are. And so at that point in time they've got a decision. Right. And, and we don't have this happen very often at all. But you hear on occasion, right. Where someone is like, well I don't agree with this thing and it's like, well let's sit down and we'll talk about why. And once you understand the why, if you still don't agree with it, now you've got another decision to make.

Mark Abbott

[0:43:51]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:43:51]

Which is maybe we're not as well suited for you as you had hoped or thought we were. But you know, but fundamentally a self actualizing organization has, is one where the issues can flow up and down.

Mark Abbott

[0:44:08]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:44:08]

People are totally, totally open and talking about things. There's no politics. People aren't talking behind their backs.

Mark Abbott

[0:44:15]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:44:15]

And people genuinely care about what's in the best long term interest of the company.

Cole Abbott

[0:44:21]

I think succeed or escalate is very much like the immune system of a company.

Mark Abbott

[0:44:25]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:44:26]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:44:26]

And it's. If the immune system is functioning well, it's like, okay, you know exactly when an issue arises and you can identify it precisely and you learn to do that by, well you, hopefully a lot of these conversations and then you can kind of figure out, well this is an issue, this isn't an issue.

Mark Abbott

[0:44:39]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:44:40]

And that informs your intuition. And then you can succeed appropriately or escalate appropriately or just attack the issue.

Mark Abbott

[0:44:47]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:44:47]

I know when to attack it. That's healthy for your immune system. Or, or I need to know when to attack things or have someone else attack it appropriately. And when you. So if you have a lot of things where it's just a bunch of people trying to attack things that they shouldn't be attacking or it's getting blocked because there's a conflict because the, the ideas you're trying to go back and forth with on the why aren't made explicit. Then you have inflammation.

Mark Abbott

[0:45:10]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:45:10]

And I'm sure I'm, I'm butchering some scientific stuff here.

Mark Abbott

[0:45:13]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:45:14]

But just inflammation for inflammation sake is. Well, that's not good.

Mark Abbott

[0:45:18]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:45:18]

And we, that's, that's a common thing these days. We're like, oh, inflammation is bad. Like, no, there's times where inflammation is a good thing and we should just let it do its thing because that's an immune response. We evolved to do that. In an ideal system, you'd love to just know that, oh, well, there's inflammation here. There's an issue happening. Well, I know that I can trust them to sort it out or it will get escalated.

Mark Abbott

[0:45:38]

Well.

Mark Abbott

[0:45:41]

Yes. And if you think about inflammation is, doesn't inflammation come from working out too?

Cole Abbott

[0:45:47]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:45:47]

Yes.

Mark Abbott

[0:45:48]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:45:48]

So if you work out and then it's like the whole thing like you ice bath right after.

Mark Abbott

[0:45:52]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:45:53]

A hypertrophy session. Right. A strength training session. Well, you'll squash the inflammatory, inflammatory response.

Mark Abbott

[0:45:59]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:46:00]

And so you'll be back to performing more quickly because you won't have the delayed onset muscle soreness, but you won't recover fully.

Mark Abbott

[0:46:10]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:46:11]

Right. So you're not going to get all the benefits of the training. But if you have to perform right after, there's an argument to be made that it's good for that. Sure. But it's just. Right. Different tools for what you're trying to achieve. But. Right. Feeling sore is like, well, that's a sign that you did things and your body's repairing and there's an inflammatory response. And in that case it's good.

Mark Abbott

[0:46:29]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:46:29]

Let it happen.

Mark Abbott

[0:46:30]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:46:30]

So it's interesting, I love this metaphor now. Right. Because there, when you think about a company especially they're all evolving.

Mark Abbott

[0:46:37]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:46:37]

You either grow or die. So you think about, there's, there's good inflammation and there's bad inflammation.

Mark Abbott

[0:46:44]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:46:44]

And, and so as a leader, good conflict.

Cole Abbott

[0:46:47]

There's bad conflict.

Mark Abbott

[0:46:47]

Exactly. As a leader, you may be sitting here going, there's a department that has inflammation going on right now, but this is good.

Mark Abbott

[0:46:55]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:46:55]

Because you're growing and it's like, you know, it gets back to, you know, as a leader, sometimes you need to decide when you need to step in and, and, and, and help or when you just sort of watch the struggle because you know that the best lessons are going to be learned through the struggle.

Mark Abbott

[0:47:17]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:47:18]

And does the issue require medical attention?

Mark Abbott

[0:47:22]

Exactly.

Cole Abbott

[0:47:23]

Right, right.

Mark Abbott

[0:47:24]

Is this good inflammation or is bad inflammation? And, and, and, and, and, and does it require, you know, someone to intervene?

Mark Abbott

[0:47:33]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:47:34]

And you know, there's no perfect answer.

Cole Abbott

[0:47:36]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:47:36]

But fundamentally what you want to do is set the organization up. And now I'm actually doing a plug for 90 so I'm going to be very transparent on this.

Mark Abbott

[0:47:46]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:47:47]

You want to set the organization up, you want to set your operating system up so that you can see where there's inflammation, where things are working and where they're not working and then you can decide with some decent data. No, that's, that's actually, it's okay.

Mark Abbott

[0:48:01]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:48:01]

We want that moment, we want the lessons that are coming out of that. We, that's a stretch moment. This is a good stretch moment for that particular team or ooh, right. We gotta get down and address this because we don't, if we don't address this, the probability that bad outcomes.

Mark Abbott

[0:48:21]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:48:22]

Fundamentally bad long term outcomes will, will, will, will, will happen versus no, there's a good chance that learning will take place here and this will make us better as an organization.

Mark Abbott

[0:48:35]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:48:36]

Because if you're viewing leadership as the nervous system, Right. Sometimes the nervous system has to intervene. Meaning like I'm going to go to the hospital or go take this anti inflammatory whatever.

Mark Abbott

[0:48:46]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:48:47]

Whatever your method is there.

Mark Abbott

[0:48:48]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:48:48]

There's a lot of times as the nervous system that you want to do something that you know is going to create an inflammatory response. Right, right. There's like, we're going to make this thing, we need to get stronger.

Mark Abbott

[0:49:01]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:49:01]

And this team is being complacent to be like, I'm going to stretch them. Right. And you know that there's going to be issues that come along with that.

Mark Abbott

[0:49:08]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:49:08]

And that's fine. But ideally you'd like to be ahead of that and proactive in that rather than reactive in that. Like make your team strong, have them appropriately stretch.

Mark Abbott

[0:49:20]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:49:20]

Set appropriate goals so that when something that is rather mundane and inevitable as an issue occurs. Well, they're, they're not only are they competent in being able to handle that and resilient or anti fragile, however you want to view it, but also that communication pathway between them and their leaders is, is well trotted. Right. They've already, they've done it. They know how to talk about it and they can resolve that very quickly rather than like, well, I don't know how to bring this up. I don't know how to talk to this thing.

Mark Abbott

[0:49:49]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:49:49]

It's like, well, rather do that on our own accord rather than waiting for something to do it to us. And if this response isn't dealt with and you're like, oh, I'm treating this my own interest as a, say a virus.

Mark Abbott

[0:50:05]

Right, right.

Cole Abbott

[0:50:06]

And the virus then kills the host. Well, then the virus dies.

Mark Abbott

[0:50:10]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:50:11]

So that doesn't really work very well either.

Mark Abbott

[0:50:13]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:50:14]

So it always isn't. You want the system to be good so that you can be healthy.

Mark Abbott

[0:50:18]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:50:19]

And move forward. And even if you are of the virus type, meaning that you just want to go like, you're just pushing really hard and it's probably not for the best of the company. It's like we still want the company to do well and you want yourself to do well within the things that you can go find a better thing to host to live in.

Mark Abbott

[0:50:35]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:50:35]

So weird analogy for that, but it's.

Mark Abbott

[0:50:38]

Actually really, really good because I have experienced situations where someone professes to care about what's in the best interest of the company, but fundamentally what they're doing is 100% not in the best interest of the company. They're not dealing with it directly, they're not succeeding or escalating. They're just literally trying to kill the host. And ultimately it's like, well, if you care about the company, you care about your colleagues, why are you trying to kill the host?

Mark Abbott

[0:51:13]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:51:14]

And so, you know, so that's a moment where either that human being needs, you know, you need to help them understand. I'm not sure what you're doing is really in the best interest of what you're after, or that human being is just deep down inside, you know, is a virus that wants to, you know, they're like, I, you know, I'm going to kill the host. And yeah, I guess that's not going to be good for me in the long run, but I really am, I don't want to think about it because I'm just so mad at the host.

Cole Abbott

[0:51:46]

Yeah. There's like, there's, there's parallel things there. Right. Where you're, you're both trying to set them on a better path, understanding the whole thing, but you're also keeping an eye on it. Like, is this something we've have to intervene on?

Mark Abbott

[0:51:54]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:51:55]

Are we going to have to have a little surgery here?

Mark Abbott

[0:51:56]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:51:57]

And because you want it, it's going to take time to discern in the meantime, like, why want to give this individual the best chance possible to help Us and, and also grow as a, as a leader or human or whatever.

Mark Abbott

[0:52:11]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:52:12]

And, and we've experienced this where, you know, intellectually we know that there it's almost impossible not to on occasion have someone who's toxic to your culture when.

Cole Abbott

[0:52:34]

It'S good to have that. Right. Let's say, make sure the immune system is functioning. You ought to have a little bit of a bacteria come in at some point. You can't just shield yourself from all these things and really inspect everything you put in your body and everything you touch. That doesn't work.

Mark Abbott

[0:52:46]

It's a great metaphor, right. Or an analogy. But once you, once you're confident that someone's toxic, right. I mean, genuinely toxic, right. You got to move on that. And, and, and even we've had, you know, not many over the last.

Cole Abbott

[0:53:05]

We've experienced it, but we've experienced it.

Mark Abbott

[0:53:07]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:53:08]

And it comes and, and, and you know, all of a sudden, next thing you know, that toxicity has leaked into.

Cole Abbott

[0:53:15]

And what's going to infect the rest of the of. Of. Right. Slowly it's gonna, you know, get something on your arm is gonna move and then, well, you don't want to amputate the whole arm, but worse, right. Moves up and gettings in your heart and you're done.

Mark Abbott

[0:53:26]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:53:27]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:53:27]

And so we've seen it, right. And it, and, and you know, you got to live it probably, you know, as a leader. You got to live it 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 20 times. I don't know how many times you got to live it. But you know, even, even, even with me and all the bloody decades that I have experienced, right, I have let toxicity, I accommodated it. Hope with hope, right, that the person, you know, genuinely was learning and growing and. But you know, my experience has been that, you know, it's really, really rare for when, if, when you see that even though the person says the right things, it's really, really where we're deep down inside.

Cole Abbott

[0:54:08]

They're a good fit.

Mark Abbott

[0:54:11]

A good fit.

Cole Abbott

[0:54:11]

Yeah. And I think most visionaries and leaders out there are like, I would describe as trait optimistic or they probably wouldn't be doing what they're doing.

Mark Abbott

[0:54:19]

Yeah, right.

Cole Abbott

[0:54:20]

Because you're like, I, I think the world's gonna be better or I think I can make the world better. Otherwise you probably wouldn't be conscientious because you wouldn't want to, you wouldn't want to sacrifice the present for the future.

Mark Abbott

[0:54:31]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:54:32]

Because if the present's better in the future, well, you know, I'd rather index than the Present. And so with that you get a lot of people that like, oh I, you know, you see the good in people. I, I think we can make this work. Or no, you know what, maybe they're just doing their own thing and that's a good thing. But infections can come in a lot of different ways.

Mark Abbott

[0:54:48]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:54:48]

Right. And it's going to take decades of experience or whatever. You could have all the knowledge but you don't have the wisdom to apply it. For you to be able to identify those things with conviction.

Mark Abbott

[0:55:00]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:55:01]

There's a lot of ways that it can come in and then you trust somebody else that's doing the thing but then they're blind to something. And so all that says it's just really hard to do that. And it's like, it's why hard to do that in medical field as well. Yeah, it's not that straightforward. But when you do have that confidence, you gotta move quickly and it may be sometimes you'll make the wrong move and like, well, we reacted too quickly and I can. That happens a lot less than the other side of the coin.

Mark Abbott

[0:55:29]

Yeah. By, by, by, by. An unbelievable factor.

Cole Abbott

[0:55:34]

Just off top of your head, guess what? I was, yeah, I was going to say. Well, I was gonna say 99%, 1%. So right. If you're in this position, trust your instinct on the thing.

Mark Abbott

[0:55:45]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:55:46]

100% and right. I check with the team, but yeah, you know what to do there. Yeah, it sucks.

Mark Abbott

[0:55:51]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:55:52]

But right. You want to keep the system alive and flourishing because that's what's best for all of your ideal stakeholders.

Mark Abbott

[0:55:57]

Yes.

Cole Abbott

[0:55:57]

Because that person you're cutting out. Well, they're not an ideal stakeholder legacy is a power driver for visionaries and leaders who aim beyond personal success to long lasting impact.

Mark Abbott

[0:56:11]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:56:12]

What legacy do you hope visionaries listening today will strive towards?

Mark Abbott

[0:56:17]

Creating a self actualizing company that does makes the world a better place where people can thrive, that helps us move more solidly into work 9.0 where people within the company genuinely feel like they're thriving now, that doesn't mean that they're thriving and life is great a hundred percent of the time. It's impossible.

Mark Abbott

[0:56:41]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:56:42]

But you know, if 90% of the time everybody's going home at night saying I love the work I do, I love the people I work with, I love the people I serve.

Mark Abbott

[0:56:52]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:56:52]

Loves, generally speaking.

Mark Abbott

[0:56:54]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:56:55]

I'm using that word 90 of the time.

Cole Abbott

[0:56:57]

You love what you're doing. That's pretty good.

Mark Abbott

[0:56:58]

It's pretty good.

Cole Abbott

[0:56:59]

That's really good. Even if 90 of the time, you're just net positive on what happened, like, that's a good, that's a good day.

Mark Abbott

[0:57:06]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:57:06]

It's like, you know, one of the things, you know, we have the assessment tool coming out and, and I would love to have a, you know, weekly check in with everybody in the company and, you know, you know, what percentage of the, of, of the time, what, what percentage of the days or not days. Right. So what percentage of the time over the last month or last week or whatever did you go home at night saying, you know, that, you know, I, I, I love the work that I'm doing. I love the people I work with.

Mark Abbott

[0:57:37]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:57:38]

Was it 90? 80, 70.

Mark Abbott

[0:57:41]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:57:42]

And yeah, I think that to get it to the place where 90% of the time people are like, this is pretty good.

Mark Abbott

[0:57:48]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:57:48]

100 is impossible.

Cole Abbott

[0:57:50]

Right. You wouldn't want 100 because that means you're not. Or you say 100 right now, but then you look back and I could have, I could have done a lot more because you didn't have the things and then we probably not going to learn.

Mark Abbott

[0:57:59]

Yeah. And I, I don't, I, it, this is angels on a pinhead.

Mark Abbott

[0:58:03]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:58:04]

Well, you know, it's going back to the 85 success rate is optimal for growth. Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:58:07]

So, yeah, 85 may be the right answer, but the point is, is that 10% of the time, you know, you go home and you're happy. That sucks. Anybody? I mean, this is just obvious, right?

Cole Abbott

[0:58:18]

Yeah, I'm trying to. There's, there's a percentage where if you win like that night, it might just be 15%, it might just be the inverse.

Mark Abbott

[0:58:25]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:58:26]

If you only win 15% of the time, obviously you win zero, you're just gonna quit the game. Yeah. So at some point yet that doesn't even work. And there's a lot of people that would say, like, oh, you know, if you're doing like 51%, like most of the time, it's good. I'm sure a lot of founders would probably fall into that category where it's just a grind. You just trudge through it and there's gonna be times cyclically, or maybe it's like we're moving from a stage four to a stage five company and it's not gonna be 90%.

Mark Abbott

[0:58:55]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:58:56]

But you're gonna have built up a lot of confidence, strength, especially across the team, by hitting the 90%. So when it gets down to, well, it's, we're in a 60% quarter right now.

Mark Abbott

[0:59:08]

But, but this is, this is actually.

Cole Abbott

[0:59:10]

And.

Mark Abbott

[0:59:11]

And this was probably another. Another podcast.

Mark Abbott

[0:59:15]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:59:16]

But understanding where you are developmentally, Right. Whether you're stage one, stage two, stage three, stage four, stage five, if you understand that you're winning the game you're playing 90% of the time.

Mark Abbott

[0:59:28]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:59:29]

As opposed to. I'm in stage four, but I'm worrying about winning 90 of the stage four. I'm in stage two, but I'm. I'm focused on being great at stage five. No, you'll. You know that it's impossible. You're never going to be happy. Right. But if, if, if. If you understand where you are and you're winning 90% of the game that you're playing right now and the game you should be playing right now.

Mark Abbott

[0:59:51]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:59:52]

That is. That. I think that's part of the issue with a lot of people as individuals, as teams, as companies. Right. They don't appreciate the game they're playing right now and focus on doing well at the game they're playing. They're playing someone else's game. Or they're playing three. They're. They're playing. They're trying to play a game that they're not even involved in right now. They're trying to. They're trying to be like a Premier League team, when the reality is is they're a Division 3 team and just become a really good Division 3 team, then focus on becoming a good Champions League team, then focus on becoming a Premier League team.

Mark Abbott

[1:00:28]

Right?

Mark Abbott

[1:00:28]

So there's. There's something in this conversation around just understanding where you are, being at peace with where you are and learning how to be good at and happy with what you're doing and knowing it's appropriate for where you are, does that make sense?

Cole Abbott

[1:00:47]

Yeah. Was like, if you're a rookie in the NBA and you're like, wow, LeBron spends a million dollars on longevity. It's like, that's probably not what you should index on right now. Maybe you should, like, really just focus on bulking up or.

Mark Abbott

[1:00:57]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[1:00:58]

Or getting your shots. Or these guys understanding the playbook. Right?

Mark Abbott

[1:01:00]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[1:01:01]

Or these guys are all making these big endorsement things, and you're like, well, I want these big endorsement things. We're like, dude, no one even knows who you are.

Mark Abbott

[1:01:07]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[1:01:07]

It was Jordan's thing of, like, we had media days. He's like, no, you get one stupid thing. Because I have to be good at my craft. Right. My product is all that matters, and I can get the endorsements because I'm a good basketball player.

Mark Abbott

[1:01:16]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[1:01:16]

But if I do anything that sacrifices me being a good player on the court. Well, then what's the. Just no point in that stuff.

Mark Abbott

[1:01:22]

Right. Well.

Cole Abbott

[1:01:23]

And obviously he's done pretty well with that. Yeah, but. Right. It's just an interesting perspective on that. So. Anything you want to say before we close this one out?

Mark Abbott

[1:01:32]

The game we're in right now, in this, as human beings, you know, I. I deeply believe we're now into work 8.0. We know where we need to get to. It's not going to be easy to get there. There's a lot of stuff that's going on in the world right now in terms of the status quo is being challenged as, as. As leaders, as founders. We need to help our people appreciate what's happening, why things are happening, and to be able to be relatively decent at answering a lot of why questions. And as a leader, you should be welcoming this moment because this is what leadership's all about. And I just, you know, I really want to do the best we can. I can at helping us have great leaders for the moment we're in, because it's not the easiest moment. So I wish everybody, you know, want to help them as best I possibly can. As best we possibly can.

Cole Abbott

[1:02:46]

All right.

Mark Abbott

[1:02:46]

All right.

Cole Abbott

[1:02:47]

Thank you.

Mark Abbott

[1:02:47]

You're welcome.