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Jun 21, 2024

Introducing: Founder's Framework

We’re excited to introduce "Founder's Framework," our new content hub dedicated to teaching, empowering, and supporting business founders. Tune in for Mark’s thoughts on the importance of small and mid-sized businesses in a healthy society and the unique challenges founders face. The episode highlights frameworks' critical role in maintaining a company's vision and values over time, ensuring long-term success and satisfaction.

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Cole Abbott (00:00:00 -> 00:00:03)

So we're launching the Founder's framework.

Mark Abbott (00:00:03 -> 00:00:07)

Is that why we have slightly new setup

Cole Abbott (00:00:07 -> 00:00:45)

Here? It's a, it's a happy coincidence. <laugh> not, it's why pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, yeah. So really focusing on founders, right? Yeah. And, and sort of having a whole dedicated, uh, microsite and content pillar for really, uh, focusing on that need. Yeah. And that audience. Yep. So I guess I will now hand it off to you to explain more about, uh, why we're calling it Founders Framework, what purposes and what you want to accomplish specifically with this, uh, so this new program. Yeah.

Mark Abbott (00:00:45 -> 00:04:05)

Yeah. So, um, you know, I've been writing, uh, for a long time. And, um, the truth is, I've, I've struggled a little bit with regard to who I've been writing for. And, um, there are a lot of voices in my head and voices around the table that have opinions on all this. Um, but the short of it is, is that, um, my, my, my, my passion, my heart is directed at, or with the founders. 'cause I think it's hard to be a founder. And I think that small and mid-sized businesses, as I think we've talked about in the podcast before, are extraordinarily important for a healthy, uh, a agreements based society. Uh, you know, sort of a, a constitutional republic. Um, I believe that, uh, you know, they're the most open to positive and negative feedback loops. Uh, they're the companies that ultimately, you know, end up being the leading companies in, you know, in, in, in, in most societies. Um, obviously the companies that are, you know, the biggest companies in the world today weren't even around 30 years ago, right? They were small and mid-sized businesses. They had founders. And, uh, and I believe that, you know, that these companies are tackling opportunities to make the world a better place. The best of 'em are to make the world a better place. Um, and so, just generally speaking, um, I believe that, you know, founders are super important. Uh, they help us innovate. They help us advance useful information. Uh, they will go after, you know, industries that are poorly run. They'll go after ideas that need to be brought into the world. Um, and, um, and I think by talking directly to founders, I'm a founder, you know, know I've, I've founded several businesses, uh, uh, I know what it's like, I know hard it is. Um, so I think I can relate with them to them. And, um, and ultimately we are speaking to people that are beyond that. Uh, A CEO isn't, you know, oftentimes there's a founder sells to a new, uh, uh, sells the company, and a CEO will come in. Um, but the things that we're talking about, I think are, you know, as applicable, uh, to CEOs as an example. And ultimately, I think all the things we talk about are things that, uh, people in the organization, regardless of where they are, should have a decent sense for. So, um, I think, I feel the time has come for me to focus on really speaking to founders. Um, I think founders have always been sort of our ICP, we've struggled a little bit, um, with regard to, is it a, is it a founder? Is it a business owner? Is it a CEO? And I'm like, I'm done with this. I really just wanna speak to founders. Uh, 'cause I think what we're talking about in writing about is applicable to a lot more, but I just wanna focus on one persona.

Cole Abbott (00:04:05 -> 00:04:16)

And if you focus on the, the core thing, right? Whereas a founder in, in most of the situations we're speaking of as is if they're CEO and, and the visionary kind of thing, right? Yeah. And so, and

Mark Abbott (00:04:16 -> 00:04:18)

A business owner almost always,

Cole Abbott (00:04:18 -> 00:04:56)

Yeah. And an owner. And so if you are speaking to the founders, which is, you know, covers all the stages of those things, right? And, and the lessons, there're applicable to the CEO to the visionary to the owner. Yeah. Uh, right. We're able to cover all that ground while still staying, staying super focused on what the actual core thing is. Yeah. And so that's a big reason why that matters. And also you being in the position of being all of the above Yeah. Right. Is one of the big reasons why we are leaning into this from a, uh, you know, from the focus of this thing A and then B, why you are being at the center of this thing. Yeah.

Mark Abbott (00:04:57 -> 00:09:16)

And then the other thing is, I've talked, I've talked about it before, right? We've talked about, you know, entrepreneurs doesn't work for me, right? Um, because, you know, there are, as we believe there are five archetypes, uh, we're gonna, we, we are gonna work on this research and, and, and either disprove or prove, you know, my theory here, um, but that we believe there are five archetypes of, of entrepreneurs. And, and not all of those archetypes are who we're speaking to, right? Um, I'm not speaking here to, uh, balloon salesman in Central Park, right? They're not gonna care about the things that we're getting into the frameworks. They don't need the frameworks, right? Uh, necessarily. Um, they don't need to figure out how to go hire people if they're just a, you know, an entrepreneur who's a sole or entrepreneur, right? So, so it doesn't apply to all entrepreneurs. And that's, you know, one of the reasons why I'm not leaning into, or we're not leaning into the term entrepreneur, we're really focused on founders. And, uh, and we talk all the time about ambitious founders. And so what's the difference between an ambitious founder and a founder? Um, in my opinion, the ambitious founders, once again, if you want to get even narrower, are the ones who genuinely want to build what we call a stage five company. A company that, um, has evolved to the place where they could gladly sell it to someone who they'd love to take over owning it because they deeply love their business and or hand it off to another leader gladly. Um, because they have a lot of confidence that leader will continue to carry the torch that they lit when they started the company. And what I mean by that is that, as we've talked about in other podcasts, um, agreements are everywhere. And one of the agreements is our core values. And so one of the things I think, uh, larger companies do is they lose their way over time because they have these transitions from CEO to CEO to CEO. And a lot of the things that the founder believed in deeply start to just like, get pushed aside. And the problem with that is, you had a bunch of people over the years who joined the company because they were attracted to all the agreements. They were attracted to a purpose, passion, just cause they were attracted to serving a cer a particular type of persona, right? They were attracted to the unique value proposition that the company was, was providing. They were attracted, obviously to the, to the core values we could go on, right? But they were attracted to all these things that the company stood for. And, um, and then all of a sudden, you know, they start changing things. And we've talked about Chesterton's fence before, right? Uh, but you know, some of these things, when you rip them down or you change 'em dramatically, you, you are ripping up something that was really super important to a bunch of your ideal stakeholders. And so, um, ultimately, I just say this because I think that boards and owners should really, if they genuinely love their company, and that's a thing that we deeply believe we want to help ambitious founders with, right? Is to, we want to give them everything they need to build a company they love forever. And why is that? What, what's, what's the big idea behind the concept? The big idea behind the, we'll, love forever is a lot of founders end up not liking their companies. They end up feeling like they're, they're, they're hurting their health, they're hurting their relationships with their families. They're, they're, they're, they're, you know, they're, they're taking away their confidence. They're just like, they're ripping at a bunch of stuff that's really kind of important to, to humans. And, and founders are humans, <laugh>. And so, you know, ultimately we want to give them everything they need to build a stage five company that they can confidently and happily handoff to another person and feel like they're continuing to love that company. Even like, like, like a child, right? They grow up, they move on, they move out, right? You don't stop loving them. Right? Um, in fact, you may love them even more because you've gone through the phases where they're kind of a pain in the ass, but that's,

Cole Abbott (00:09:16 -> 00:09:17)

You don't have to deal with them anymore. <laugh>, <laugh>.

Mark Abbott (00:09:18 -> 00:09:39)

See, you don't have to deal with certain parts of that journey anymore, which is awesome. Um, but anyway, the, the point is that, you know, wouldn't it be great if you, you know, you, you built this company, you, you got it to stage five or six or seven and, and you handed it off, you sold it, or you, or you handed it off to another generation, and you just look at it with affection.

Cole Abbott (00:09:39 -> 00:10:48)

And it's, and I, I feel like recently it's, I think it's so difficult once the founder leaves for the company to carry on, especially from like a, a branding perspective, from a, what, what's the soul of the company, right? What are the values? What are the things we stick to? Um, we've talked about that before, because, you know, it, it's very implicit when you have the founder there, they can make sure everything's going according to plan. Right. And there's a lot of things that are, for the most part, just embedded in the founder's subconscious Yeah. That those are gonna be the decision made, that's what makes the decisions. Yeah. And once that individual, and once that perspective is removed, it's very difficult to be like, what would this guide or girl do? And then what would you know if that question even gets asked. Right. And so it, it's, I I feel like whenever there's a strong brand and the founder leaves or passes, it's really, really hard and very, very rare. And I can't even think of a great example of somebody succeeding with that. Right. Continuing to have the brand be as strong as it was when the founder leaves.

Mark Abbott (00:10:48 -> 00:10:50)

How do you think, um, red Bull's doing?

Cole Abbott (00:10:51 -> 00:11:07)

I I could go really into this right now, because, you know, from a Formula One perspective, it's not doing as well, structurally. Yeah. Right. You see people, a lot of people leaving Yeah. Or wanting to leave and, and there's a lot of chaos in there. And it's been, you know what last season was when IC passed.

Mark Abbott (00:11:07 -> 00:11:08)


Cole Abbott (00:11:08 -> 00:12:12)

Yeah. And so, you know, yeah. It'll be interesting to see how they enter the new era Yeah. And, and what they look like next year. But it's the shakiest it's been ever pretty much. What about Apple? I, uh, that's a whole other discussion. I think Tim Cook is, does a good job, and I think jobs set it up well. Yeah. Because I think that's one of the strongest, uh, in terms of making things explicit. Yeah. It's very strong. Yeah. I think Chick-fil-A also does a decent job with that, making things explicit. But I'd say the, the issue with Apple is the, is Tim Cook is very much, uh, engineering mindset versus the artist mindset. He's more of a, in US terms and integrator, not a visionary. Yeah. Agreed. And so you've seen their computers become, for example, their computers are performance powerhouses now. Yeah. Like, this thing is, is crazy. Right. Uh, and that really wasn't their strength before. Right. But they've lost that sort of innovative edge that they used to have, and they've become very technically good. Yeah. So, uh, I don't think that's the ethos be great over the long run. Yeah. The

Mark Abbott (00:12:12 -> 00:12:15)

Ethos is pretty strong though. Yeah. I

Cole Abbott (00:12:15 -> 00:12:26)

Think the ethos is still strong. Yeah. So I think they's still do a good job at that. It's just the execution and, and the way they approach the game that they play is, is different having a very differently led company based on cook versus jobs.

Mark Abbott (00:12:26 -> 00:12:28)

I'll do one more. Patagonia,

Cole Abbott (00:12:30 -> 00:12:32)

I believe the founder's still there. Is he

Mark Abbott (00:12:32 -> 00:12:34)

Still, is he, is he still that involved? I don't think

Cole Abbott (00:12:34 -> 00:12:55)

He's, I don't know if he's, I don't involved or not. Yeah. Right. I, that's a, that's a very interesting emotionally driven company. Yeah. So it's, it's easier to, given that that's prioritized, right. It's, it's harder to like go of that. Yeah. Um, but Right. Even if the founder is still around in some capacity Yeah. It makes a huge

Mark Abbott (00:12:55 -> 00:12:56)

Difference. There's an influence

Cole Abbott (00:12:56 -> 00:12:58)

There, there's a presence there. And the same with,

Mark Abbott (00:12:58 -> 00:13:02)

So, so yeah. We could easily go down. Um, but

Cole Abbott (00:13:02 -> 00:13:13)

The point is you need to, right. And what we're working on here is you need to have these frameworks Exactly. These explicit, coherent, resonant frameworks internally Yeah. To make this all work and be sustainable and

Mark Abbott (00:13:13 -> 00:13:19)

Yeah. To, and to be and for you to pass the torch. Exactly.

Cole Abbott (00:13:19 -> 00:13:24)

Right. Because that's, that's the, it starts with making sure that the thing that the system works as it is. Yes.

Mark Abbott (00:13:25 -> 00:13:25)


Cole Abbott (00:13:25 -> 00:13:53)

Because that needs to happen before you can ever think about successfully handing it off. Yeah. Uh, and there really isn't a great holistic framework out there, in my opinion, as we are, as we sit now. Right. Right. I, I think, I feel like we're leading that effort. Yep. Um, and I, I really do believe it could make a huge difference for these founders and businesses and, and

Mark Abbott (00:13:53 -> 00:16:13)

For the companies. Yeah. Right? I mean, that's the big concept here, right? Is, is we're gonna focus on, we're focusing on the founders and we're focusing on the frameworks that we believe will improve the probability of being able to pass the torch from generation to generation to generation. And, um, you know, there's been a lot written about companies that have been passed from generation to generation to generation, um, reasonably well. Uh, I think the first book that I think of in terms of that it's built to last, which is now Right. Decades old. And I think it would be fascinating to go back and look at Built to Last in Good to Great the Collins work, right. And then say, okay, so what really did hap when did the wheels fall off? Right? When did things start getting wonky? Um, we've talked about this a little bit before, right? Disney as an example, buying A, B, C and, and, and, and sort of getting out of its core focus, um, many, many decades ago. Um, but, And then you've, but if things are explicit, coherent, resonant, and if they are, were built solid enough to be able to pass from generation to generation to generation. And if the focus is still can stay on those core agreements that were made early on, I'm pretty confident if the, if the, if the business is serving a market that will persist for decades and decades, obviously, um, and serving an ICP that'll be out there for decades and decades and decades, I think it can be done. And so that's kind of what, what this, this, this series, this, this focus is all about is helping founders understand the game, helping them see the game through the lens of frameworks, right? Um, and helping them think about the big idea of building a stage five or stage six or stage seven company that has all the core ingredients. It needs to be something that endures and that they love forever. That's the idea. Yeah.

Cole Abbott (00:16:13 -> 00:16:25)

Yeah. And so take it back to founders framework. Yeah. Right? What, how, uh, can people leverage the resources that we're providing through the, the newsletter, the blogs, the,

Mark Abbott (00:16:26 -> 00:16:27)

Uh, the guides and briefs, the

Cole Abbott (00:16:27 -> 00:16:37)

Guides, briefs and other things, right. We're, we're going to get, you know, down the road, introduce AI and, and some, you know, tangible frameworks that we can aggregate and play

Mark Abbott (00:16:37 -> 00:19:14)

Around in our knowledge sharing tools. Yeah. Right. Or our knowledge sharing tool, which will hopefully come out in beta, either hopefully this, this quarter or next quarter. Right. And so, you know, people can go into 90 u right inside the, the platform, and, um, you know, if they're, they wanna understand more about, you know, core values and how does establish, you know, really resonant core values, these are the things that, you know, we prescribe. If they wanna help their people understand why core values are so important for them as a company, they can, they can go in and say, Hey, go do here. Um, ultimately, right? Well, the knowledge sharing tool, we'll enable people to, um, not just teach all the concepts, tools, and disciplines that we have, um, but ultimately, you know, you can, uh, it'll deliver skill badges associated there with, so maybe you have some people in the company as an example, who are really good at helping, you know, people understand whether it's the core values or, uh, KPIs and targets and the logic behind everything. Uh, but, you know, ultimately giving companies everything they need to not just, uh, you know, it, it everything they need to create a super healthy, um, environment where people are thriving, right? They're focused, they understand why they're focused, they understand why the company does all these things. Um, and, uh, and, and, and, and so people are like, oh, I get it now. Right? Because a lot of times, you know, unfortunately, I think even companies that have been coached, yeah, the senior leadership team understands everything, but I don't think a lot of companies, I know this for a fact, right? A lot of the coach companies, you know, you, you go down, you know, into the organization deeper and deeper and, you know, because they're running hard and there's lots going on, et cetera, et cetera. You know, people don't understand why we, you know, oh, KPIs, that's, they don't trust me. They, they need to have this data on me every single, every single week. It's like, no, this is how we avoid micromanaging. If everything's green, we're gonna stay outta the way and we just cheer on from the sidelines. We want you to run, run, run. And then, you know, giving people, um, tools for making it clear that these are the skills and experiences associated with this seat. And if you want to go here, you need to start working on this. You want to go here, you need to start working on this. And by the way, we're giving you all the, all the training and developmental materials and the coaching and the mentoring, um, so that, you know, you can continue to pursue your dreams and, uh, and continue to sort of pursue the things that, uh, you're ambitious about.

Cole Abbott (00:19:16 -> 00:19:16)


Mark Abbott (00:19:16 -> 00:19:16)


Cole Abbott (00:19:17 -> 00:19:25)

It's, it's fun to get all of the, the resources out and integrated. Yeah. Right. It's taken a heck

Mark Abbott (00:19:25 -> 00:19:27)

Of a lot of work. And we're not there yet,

Cole Abbott (00:19:27 -> 00:19:27)


Mark Abbott (00:19:27 -> 00:19:52)

Like you and I were chatting about earlier today, um, you can, it's, it's coming, right? I mean, we're just Right. There's some really cool stuff coming. And, and, uh, and, uh, and, and we, you know, I always say we're about this far along in terms of what we know we could do and how we could help. And so, um, I think this is a year where we're gonna make a, a nice step up.

Cole Abbott (00:19:52 -> 00:20:24)

Yeah. Everything that's we've seen has been like, oh, this is, this is fun. It's cool. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so given I guess where everything will be, let's just say end of quarter, yeah. Uh, how, what would your approach be to leveraging everything, right? Leveraging the like knowledge sharing tool, the blogs, the, the, the newsletter. What would be your prescription for, uh, somebody who is sort of shifting to a framework space leadership approach? Yeah.

Mark Abbott (00:20:25 -> 00:20:25)


Cole Abbott (00:20:27 -> 00:20:28)

It's trite

Mark Abbott (00:20:28 -> 00:24:50)

Said all the time, right? Every single company is unique. Um, they're at a different stage of development. Um, they have, uh, you know, they're across a, you know, there's a continuum of, of sort of mastery across the, you know, know, the, the requisite concepts, tools, and disciplines at the senior leadership team level, obviously at the department level, at the team level, at the individual level. Um, one of the things that we're working on is, um, is being able to meet people where they are in their journey and give them assessments that'll help them understand where they are in their journey, and then ultimately have the platform, the system, um, help them understand, uh, where to start. We have strong opinions on where to start. I do personally, but they're my opinions. And, um, I think they're gonna be right. But, um, but time will tell and the data will help us, you know, figure out how to best serve people. Um, so I think, you know, by the end of Q2, right, Q2 of 2024, um, you know, I'm hopeful that we'll have a pretty decent ability to meet people where they are in the journey and give them a decent recommendation for what's next. What should they be focusing on, right? And what should they not be worrying about at all? And for them to understand that it's okay, right? I, I know I've said this before, probably several podcasts, but it's okay if your processes are a little wonky, right? In the beginning of upgrading your operating system, it just that they're gonna, it is gonna take a time, right? Obviously if they're causing real, real problems, you gotta go there. But, you know, documenting and making sure that every single department has mastered their processes, um, which is a thing that, you know, we're going through right now, right? This year, it's part of everybody's, every, every department leaders or core function leaders, um, roles and responsibilities includes process mastery. And, you know, and it's not to be a hundred percent great, it's, it's sort of have the 20, um, 80, right? The 20% of, of the activities that generate 80% of the value for them to be documented, uh, for the major, uh, sort of process, steps to have KPIs associated with it, et cetera. Um, you know, that's the thing that we know is gonna take a whole year. Um, you know, another one is, an example is for your, uh, department to have the KPIs, you know, mastered, right? What are the department KPIs? What are the sub functions or the core function, right? What are the core functions to KPIs? What are the sub functions, right? What are the team's KPIs? What are the associated targets? What are the KPIs that every single individual should have? What are the associated targets? So, once again, ultimately, wouldn't it be amazing if you knew you, you had mastered KPIs across all of your core functions, and 90% of them were green, and 5% were yellow, and 5% were red. And, and, and you're just, you're focused just on that 5% red stuff. And, um, and, and, and, and getting everything, you know, back to green, it'll never be, never be a hundred percent green, obviously. Um, but, you know, 'cause most people don't even really understand the target concept, you know? So, um, and what I mean by that is, I think, I think too many leaders create targets that are there to make sure they hit their goals as opposed, that are there to make sure that they understand when there's an issue. 'cause those are very different things, right? Um, the reality is, if, if, if all your targets are goal centric and about hitting your numbers for the year, as an example, after a while, and, and you'll just say you're right under, you know, you're, you're like, you're gonna hit 95% of your numbers, or 98%, and it's actually all all good. 'cause you had pretty, you know, pretty ambitious goals for the year. Uh, everything's gonna be read. And if everything's read, you're not gonna look at anything. And so it, it, you've lost the entire power of having, you know, uh, mastered KPIs as an example. 'cause you really haven't mastered KPIs, right?

Cole Abbott (00:24:50 -> 00:24:51)

You haven't done it, you haven't

Mark Abbott (00:24:51 -> 00:25:55)

Done it properly. So, um, you know, so ultimately it's just really helping people understand, you know, where they are and like, what's vital. And, you know, I believe that getting the vision stuff is like, you know, if you don't have the vision stuff figured out, you're not gonna be able to take advantage of compounding. You're not gonna be able to tell your story. Well, um, you're not gonna be able to attract and retain people. There's just so many things that, that don't happen, um, that, that are hard, much harder than they need to be if you don't have your vision done well. And then the other thing is, you know, structure, right? To me, you know, all tools are equal. Some tools are more equal than others to paraphrase or well, but structure is so important because it's, it's, it's how you channel the energy of the entire company and, and make sure that, you know, you're, they're, you're reducing the friction of like, people not knowing who's responsible for what, et cetera. So, um, there's things that I believe are like super important early on in the pro in, in the, in the upgrade process. And hopefully we can do a good job of helping people with those.

Cole Abbott (00:25:55 -> 00:26:34)

Yeah. I mean, what you say of, uh, a map is a framework, right? Yeah. And so if you, it's not a territory, right? No, it's, it's, it's the map. It's the map. And once we get the, uh, the platform and everything, all those tools working, then you got GPS. Yeah. Right? And you gotta have your vision, that's your destination, and you gotta have your, you structure, right? That's how you get from here to, that's your vehicle. Yeah. And so all these components are, are working together and, and evolving, right? Yeah. Maps is, maps been around forever. GPS hasn't been, and Right. You know, now we're working on frameworks and working out how do you locate yourself within that framework, and then how do you use this to get from here to there? Yeah. Within your specific Yeah. Your specific journey. Yeah.

Mark Abbott (00:26:34 -> 00:27:24)

And frameworks. You know, I think frameworks is just a, a, a, our single word for describing concepts, tools, and disciplines. Yep. Right? And so, you know, a a a process is a framework, right? And, um, you know, as I say all the time, it's not that complicated to build a great company. If you have a decent market and you have a decent product. Um, uh, and so, but you know, just like building a house, right? You need a vision. You need plans, you need tools and disciplines. And so, um, frameworks help us understand all this stuff. And, you know, we, we, we try to make them, and I know we suck at this compared to like, you know, Gino in the us, but we try to make them as simple as possible, but we always respecting the concept of less is more.

Cole Abbott (00:27:24 -> 00:27:41)

Yeah. Less, more. Until it's not right. Until it's not. But I, I think I, I think Geno does a good job at making everything very resonant Yeah. And, and really communicating it well. Yeah. But to give us credit, our frameworks and our concepts are vastly more complex there,

Mark Abbott (00:27:41 -> 00:27:42)


Cole Abbott (00:27:42 -> 00:28:32)

Yeah. And so it's gonna take more time to figure out how to make that really resonant, how to make that super cohesive and, and digestible for a broader audience. Yeah. And I think we're, we're making every single iteration, we're making it more and more approachable. Yeah. And so I, you know, to me, I'd rather be in that position of really distilling a grand concept into something amazing, rather than being like, okay, here's something simple and it's good and ready to go. Right. 'cause we're, we're playing that long game where, you know, we're still, to me a few years out from being where I'd like to be Yeah, yeah. With having these frameworks be really, really solid and refined. Yeah. Um, but there's a, there's a, an entropic component to that process where it just takes time. Yeah. You can't rush it. You, you, you know. Yeah. Nobody's done this for a reason. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Abbott (00:28:33 -> 00:31:07)

And I think the, um, you know, I, I think Part of why ours, it's like structure, right? I, you know, the way we teach structure is more complex than the way EOS teaches structure. And, uh, and, and, and, and, and the way us teaches it is, is it's great, right? I mean, it's super helpful for people, but, you know, ultimately we're trying to give people a slightly more complex understanding of structure so that they don't end up running into the issues that if you didn't understand that next layer of, of, of, of, of insight, um, you know, you, you're, you're gonna just be dealing with issues, likely dealing with issues that you otherwise would not have if you just took it to that next level. And so, you know, structure's the classic one. Um, for us, you know, I think obviously, you know, you know, us versus eeo s we don't, you know, EOS doesn't get into enterprise value. So that's a thing that we believe, um, is one of the nine core competencies. And, you know, and, and we believe that to really, that everybody in the company should have a decent understanding of how enterprise value is created, because everybody in the company's involved in creating enterprise value. And, you know, part of that's based upon, you know, my deep belief on, on transparency and transparency, because I deeply believe you need to treat, create high trusts cultures, uh, especially as we move into this next age of work. So yeah, there's stuff that we just like, we lean into, um, and we're leaning into it because we really do want, um, to reduce the grind associated with ultimately, you know, creating a, you know, an extraordinarily productive, humane and resilient company where employees are focused, aligned, and thriving. And, and, and ultimately for pe for founders to create places where work doesn't suck, 'cause work shouldn't suck. And ultimately, and that includes for them, right? Um, you know, I, I think, you know, it's probably not fair. Um, but I, I think generally speaking, a lot of people think that a lot of non founders, and particularly I think people are, you know, early on, earlier on in their careers, um, I don't think they appreciate how hard it is to build a company. And, and, and, and I get that right. But it is hard. It's hard <laugh> Yeah. Even with everything, it's never, it, it can be simple, but it's never easy. Never easy. Yep.