Intensity vs Consistency: Why Founders Burn Out

Cole Abbott

[0:00:05]

Intensity versus consistency. We're. We're in an interesting time right now.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:12]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:00:13]

Where you're having a lot of people really just grind, grind, grind.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:17]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:00:18]

And it's. We know that's not a sustainable pace.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:21]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:00:22]

For things. Right. We have extra mile as a core value for a reason.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:26]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:00:26]

Um, not because it's. Every time you're running, you're running an extra mile.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:30]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:00:30]

Right. We're not. This is not Alabama summer football camp. This is. This is a company where we're doing this, you know, infinitely. For all intents and purposes.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:42]

Yep.

Cole Abbott

[0:00:42]

And so there's times where we want it to be an appropriate level of intensity consistently.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:47]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:00:48]

But there are times when you need to lean in a little bit more.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:50]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:00:51]

And some people are going to have issues stepping back from that. That's going to lead to, you could say, poor performance.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:59]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:00:59]

Or output or outcomes in the future.

Mark Abbott

[0:01:02]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:01:02]

Right. Whether that's people having to take a real step back. Right. And leave the company, which is just not good.

Mark Abbott

[0:01:09]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:01:09]

Or people really just carrying that facade of, no, everything's going well. This is great. I love this. And you're just deteriorating from the inside.

Mark Abbott

[0:01:19]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:01:19]

I think that really, that burden lies on the founder, especially both psychologically speaking.

Mark Abbott

[0:01:26]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:01:26]

We know the traits that most founders have and a lot of entrepreneurs have.

Mark Abbott

[0:01:31]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:01:31]

And they're very likely to, you know, be pushing on the gas and watch a David Goggins video and be like, I'm not pushing hard enough. I need to push more. Like, who's gonna carry the boats? And really just go into that. And then maybe you just need, you know, a softer voice, like an Eckhart Toll. And you're whispering in your ear like, no, it's okay. You're good. Yeah, it's fine. And balance those things out. So why do you think so many founders either burn out chasing intense moments or stagnate in overly rigid systems?

Mark Abbott

[0:02:03]

We can talk about people systems and founders. So founders, as you. As you pointed out, especially ambitious founders. And I. And I tend to, you know, when I use the word founder, I think about people who are actually, you know, intensely focused on building a company. And I think that the most successful founders are building a company with a very strong point of view about what that company will look like. It's a dream.

Cole Abbott

[0:02:38]

There's a separation in this sense between entrepreneurs and, like, serial entrepreneurs.

Mark Abbott

[0:02:43]

Yes.

Cole Abbott

[0:02:44]

And founders.

Mark Abbott

[0:02:44]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:02:45]

Because if you're a serial entrepreneur, it's like, oh, we just go really hard for a year, get this thing going, sell it off. You can take a little break in your off season and then. Right. Hit the ground running again. But if you're, if you're a founder, that, and you're doing the same business.

Mark Abbott

[0:02:59]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:02:59]

The same project for five plus years, you don't really get that seasonality.

Mark Abbott

[0:03:05]

And I mean even there, there's so much to unpack. But let's talk, let's talk about, you know, sort of those classic founders. I think, you know, when most people think about founders, they think about the likes of a Steve Jobs or you know, Walt Disney or these people who, you know, have built an enduring business that we're all aware of.

Mark Abbott

[0:03:28]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:03:28]

So this, this sort of, these in founder, these founders who have a vision and they're driven to turn that vision into reality. And, and, and they're very intense about it. They tend to be, as we've talked about before, they tend to be competitive, they tend to be highly conscientious. They're very, everything is, you know, on their shoulders. They're big picture, you know, connect the dots kind of people. They, you know, have a vision of where the company can be, what the company would look like in 5, 10, 15, 20 years.

Mark Abbott

[0:04:07]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:04:07]

And so generally speaking, they're intense human beings with strong opinions and, and that is a hard thing to carry and be very consistent with in terms of the impact you have on your people and those founders. And I will put myself into not the category of the being the famous guy, but category of having a long term vision and being conscientious and competitive and intense. You know, there is a, that there's a big up and down cycle associated with the journey. There's ups, there's downs. And you know, what we teach and what we try to help people understand is that, you know, you gotta set back. A great founder should be sitting back and sort of thinking about this in terms of 90, you know, day marches. Get everybody on the same page in March 90 days. March 90 days. Hit 90% of everything that matters. And just sort of take a very measured long term, if not infinite, obviously sort of approach to turning your vision into reality. But what happens is that as the business grows and as it goes through the stages of development, as a founder, you go through these periods of time where you let things go, you bring people on, they're on the same page and then somehow or another you find yourself no longer being on the same page. And now you become from, you know, the perspective of lots of the employees. All of a sudden now you're overly intense, you're overly micromanaging because you're like, wait a second. Things aren't going. This is not where. We're not going where we want. I wanted to go, this is not, you know, it doesn't feel like we're making progress the way I wanted to make the progress. All of a sudden I wake up and I'm surrounded by people who kind of are on the same page as me, but maybe they're not on the same page as me or worse.

Mark Abbott

[0:06:32]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:06:32]

They're literally not on the same page as, as, as you. And they're kind of fighting things that are core to you. And so there's this up and down that takes place as you make your way through the stages of development. At least that's my experience so far, and I think I've seen it with other founders as well. And so there's this issue between consistency and intensity. And the reality is, is that you can become less intense if things are consistent. When things start to become inconsistent, you become more intense.

Mark Abbott

[0:07:05]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:07:06]

And so I think that, you know, as I said earlier, you got employees, you got the system, and you got the founder. And if, you know, one of the beautiful things about a good operating system is it enables you to become better and better and better at providing frameworks and structures and, you know, whether it's core values or the structure of the organization or whether it's your guiding principles or your forever agreements, you know, those are supposed to help you and everybody else be on the same page. So that it does feel like not too much intensity, lots of consistency, because ultimately it's that those fluctuations that create the burnout and on either the company, certain team members, or even the founder. So ultimately what you, you know, you're trying to figure out how to create, how to navigate the stages of development, staying relatively consistent, staying relatively intense in a healthy way, not an overly, you know, sort of exhausting way for you and. Or, you know, the people within the organization.

Cole Abbott

[0:08:25]

Intensity is much more of a subjective and relative term. Right. What is intense for some person might be.

Mark Abbott

[0:08:33]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:08:34]

Just an everyday mood for someone else.

Mark Abbott

[0:08:37]

Yes.

Cole Abbott

[0:08:37]

Right. And Right. So. So you have. Consistency is. That's very objective. That's like everything's laid out and then the intensity is, you know, the other. The right direction and then the vector for that.

Mark Abbott

[0:08:49]

Yes.

Cole Abbott

[0:08:49]

The magnitude.

Mark Abbott

[0:08:50]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:08:51]

And so if you have a changing magnitude on things, and that's going to create a lot of stress in the system.

Mark Abbott

[0:08:55]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:08:55]

And if it's not built for that, well, that. And that's bad. But a unifying operating system Allows is a tool for applying your desired level of intensity consistently.

Mark Abbott

[0:09:08]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:09:09]

So everything's laid out. We know what we're doing. We're doing this in 90 day marches.

Mark Abbott

[0:09:15]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:09:15]

We're not doing it like, oh, it's gonna be two weeks this time, then this next project be six months, then it's a week. And you're not sleeping. And you're sleeping. You're staying at the office.

Mark Abbott

[0:09:23]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:09:24]

Right. That is just chaos.

Mark Abbott

[0:09:27]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:09:27]

And a lot of things going on. Right. So we're using this thing. Then we're gonna switch over to this platform and then do this. And then these things aren't communicating well. But if everyone's on the same operating system moving the same increments at the same pace, there's gonna be times where you have to dial up the intensity a little bit and then you can dial it back afterwards. You know, a little bit of a stress and recovery dichotomy there.

Mark Abbott

[0:09:48]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:09:49]

But it makes all of it explicit.

Mark Abbott

[0:09:51]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:09:51]

And having that explicit. Same page. We're doing the same thing. Really. Concrete, defined direction allows you to be consistent. Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:10:02]

Yes. Now, the problem is, as we've seen and experienced, I would say, as you said earlier, you know, we're going through a phase right now where I feel like things are not as consistent as they should be. Things are more intense than is sustainable.

Cole Abbott

[0:10:22]

We're creating a lot of new things.

Mark Abbott

[0:10:24]

We are.

Cole Abbott

[0:10:26]

The game we were playing is not the game we're going to play.

Mark Abbott

[0:10:29]

Yes.

Cole Abbott

[0:10:29]

And so not a lot of things are in maintenance state right now.

Mark Abbott

[0:10:34]

No.

Mark Abbott

[0:10:34]

And that's how they are.

Cole Abbott

[0:10:37]

They never.

Mark Abbott

[0:10:38]

Sure.

Cole Abbott

[0:10:39]

But even things like, okay, what systems are we using? How do we strategize this stuff? All of those. Everything's in flux. What the structure of the teams look like is in flux.

Mark Abbott

[0:10:48]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:10:48]

So even that little bit of consistency of routine, a foundation you can fall back on when things get a little intense. Well, that, that safety net isn't there anymore.

Mark Abbott

[0:10:58]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:10:58]

Right. And so if you're just sort of out in the open, structure wise. Because you're in between things.

Mark Abbott

[0:11:03]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:11:03]

And you fall. Well, the people that normally would help you bring you back up.

Mark Abbott

[0:11:07]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:11:08]

Are they not there?

Cole Abbott

[0:11:09]

They may not be there. Or you might not have developed the relationships with those on your team so that they know before you have to say it explicitly.

Mark Abbott

[0:11:17]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:11:17]

That, hey, you're not doing well right now.

Mark Abbott

[0:11:19]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:11:20]

And that's really hard.

Mark Abbott

[0:11:22]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:11:23]

But this is all in service of us trying to create the system both for us internally and eventually for our clients. Right. A System that really does provide that consistency at a high level.

Mark Abbott

[0:11:33]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:11:34]

And. And provides that consistency at a high level that supports hyper growth may not be the right terminology because it seems too much. Right. What's hyper growth?

Mark Abbott

[0:11:52]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:11:52]

Hyper growth to me is probably over 100%, but significant growth rates.

Mark Abbott

[0:11:57]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:11:57]

You could say, capable of facilitating hyper growth.

Mark Abbott

[0:12:01]

Yes.

Mark Abbott

[0:12:01]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:12:01]

So when you do, really, you just want to step foot on the gas. You have a great team, everyone's working the same thing or in the same direction with the same mindset, same value, same principles.

Mark Abbott

[0:12:10]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:12:11]

That you can do that and it won't break.

Mark Abbott

[0:12:13]

Right, Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:12:13]

It's like having a. A jet with a very strong airframe that can, you know, sustain 10Gs.

Mark Abbott

[0:12:19]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:12:19]

It should be able to do that. Even though most of the time you're probably not.

Mark Abbott

[0:12:23]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:12:23]

Going to be in that situation.

Mark Abbott

[0:12:25]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:12:25]

And that's the kind of the idea behind Extra Mile. Right. Is that we as individuals, we as teams, we as a company are capable of sort of hitting that hyperspeed.

Mark Abbott

[0:12:37]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:12:38]

Without fracturing.

Mark Abbott

[0:12:39]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:12:41]

That's, you know, part of the big idea behind Extra Mile. But as you said in, you know, in the beginning of this, um, you know, you, you can only sustained, you know, sort of that hyper growth rate or that Extra mile. Let's just say you can. That Extra Mile is not something that is forever. It's.

Mark Abbott

[0:13:02]

It's.

Mark Abbott

[0:13:02]

It's for a specific period of time. And I think, you know, if you look at when we went into 2025, it's so funny. My brain's already in 2026, but when we went into 2025, we knew that the first three, or, you know, I hate to say the whole bloody year.

Mark Abbott

[0:13:23]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:13:24]

Was going to be like an extra mile year.

Cole Abbott

[0:13:26]

I think you put into three stages of Extra Mile for the first three quarters.

Mark Abbott

[0:13:29]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:13:30]

Between structural changes, the new commercial model, mobile, a new way of messaging, positioning, AI. AI, lots of things.

Mark Abbott

[0:13:42]

Knowledge portal.

Cole Abbott

[0:13:44]

Knowledge Portal and then all the other integrations. Yeah, integrations. Integration seems like a. Like one that's just easy to lay out there. Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:13:52]

Unless you're. Unless you're playing in the industry.

Cole Abbott

[0:13:55]

But for the whole company, it's like, you're right. Because there's mobiles like, how do we do this? We've never done something like this before. We were going to launch like that, which was new commercial model, same thing.

Mark Abbott

[0:14:03]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:14:03]

Right. Integration is like. Well, everyone just wants integration. So it's just like, here you go, have fun with it. Obviously, a lot of work on. On Blaine and the team yeah. Which is awesome. So glad that we're getting that out.

Mark Abbott

[0:14:14]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:14:15]

Uh, but. Right. It's a. It's a different kind of game and you're trying to do all these things at the same time.

Mark Abbott

[0:14:20]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:14:20]

It's structural changes.

Mark Abbott

[0:14:22]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:14:22]

Reorgs, shifts in priorities.

Mark Abbott

[0:14:25]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:14:26]

And it's really unsettling.

Mark Abbott

[0:14:29]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:14:30]

And it's uncomfortable.

Mark Abbott

[0:14:31]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:14:32]

And that's hard. And there's. I mean. Right. The team's done a very good job of. Of keeping it together, of holding things down and persevering and going the extra mile.

Mark Abbott

[0:14:44]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:14:44]

Even when they're already stretched pretty thin, it's like. Yeah, well, we got extra mile for a, you know, for a reason. That's a core value. And it's just like, all right, things are getting. And then there are people that thrive in it, which is another interesting thing.

Mark Abbott

[0:14:56]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:14:56]

Where it's like everything's happening and that they get that adrenaline rush and like. Okay. And then that. That passion comes back out of them.

Mark Abbott

[0:15:02]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:15:02]

Which is. Is beautiful to see in the middle of what could be considered a darker time.

Mark Abbott

[0:15:10]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:15:11]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:15:12]

Because what happens at least is what's happened for us is, you know, the cool thing is. I mean, and it's so hard because we're in the middle of it right now.

Mark Abbott

[0:15:25]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:15:26]

But the cool thing is, is that, you know, Kyle, who's Phillips, who runs our. The team that's responsible for mobile, they basically took this idea on and in within 3/4 got it to GA, which is just extraordinary. And it's. It's super cool. And yesterday we were in the top 100, you know, downloads on. On Apple as an example. And we've got this big bet internally on how many people are going to download the thing in the first 90 days of GA. But, you know, you. You look at what's been achieved this year in terms of mobile, in terms of being ready for the commercial model launch, which is next week.

Mark Abbott

[0:16:09]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:16:09]

And we've been working on it for.

Cole Abbott

[0:16:10]

A year as we record this. This will be released after that's launched.

Mark Abbott

[0:16:14]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:16:15]

Yeah. So. So, yeah, so basically we've been working on it for a year. You got mobile, which you've been working on for. Released, which you've been working on for three quarters. And it was an intense schedule.

Mark Abbott

[0:16:26]

But.

Mark Abbott

[0:16:26]

But hit commercial model, I think we. I think we put. Picked that date out, I want to say, at least a quarter ago, plus or minus.

Mark Abbott

[0:16:34]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:16:35]

And, you know, we're. Knock on wood, we're going to hit that date. And then you look at knowledge Portal, which went to GA last quarter. That's a two year, that was almost two year effort, maybe even slightly longer to get that thing to ga. That's a lot of stuff. And then you got AI, which we've been working on since beginning of last year.

Mark Abbott

[0:17:02]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:17:03]

And integrations. I mean that's just, it's just, it's, you know, you'll stand, we'll stand back someday and see how crazy the commits were for this quarter as given how.

Cole Abbott

[0:17:14]

Things were historically speaking. I think now we have a precedent for how we want to evolve in the future.

Mark Abbott

[0:17:19]

Yeah, but, but I, but I think that, you know, it really exposed doing all this and hitting it all. It did expose where we had performance gaps, it exposed where we had process issues, it exposed where we had misalignment on some core principles. Right. It just exposed some stuff. And so the combination of doing all this and, and then having some areas where Entropy had sort of done more than its fair share of service, I think that combination created a lot of intensity within the company. And then, you know, it exposes things like that you have to address. And then when you address those things, you know, you're, you're changing things that were quote, unquote, status quo. And when you change status quo during a period of intensity, that is a doubling, if not tripling cube in terms of the way things feel.

Cole Abbott

[0:18:31]

And. Right. Want to separate status quo from something like your Forever agreements.

Mark Abbott

[0:18:36]

Yeah, yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:18:36]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:18:37]

Because you want to have some sort of foundation you can rely on during these kind of times. And generally speaking, if you are a higher growth organization, status quo is not really a great thing.

Mark Abbott

[0:18:46]

It's impossible.

Cole Abbott

[0:18:48]

What's impossible? But also you don't, you're gonna have people. It's just always gonna be a thing where you're gonna have people that sort of lean on the status quo because they prefer the comfort and predictability that comes along with it.

Mark Abbott

[0:18:59]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:19:01]

And those people are going to struggle in these kind of moments.

Mark Abbott

[0:19:04]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:19:04]

And it's part of it is. Well, you want them to learn to be, to accept the discomfort. Yes. And, and use that as an opportunity to grow. And you'll have some people that just won't do that. And you should know that, that you should be aware of that as, as a thing within the company.

Mark Abbott

[0:19:22]

You know, as you were saying with Forever Agreements, you know, part of the forever agreements are your core values. And so you know as back to the intensity and the consistency and, and, and the founder and founder mode.

Mark Abbott

[0:19:33]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:19:33]

You, but you're like, but you know We've said since day one, resilience was a core value. We said since day one, Extra mile was a core value. But you can have these core values and you can talk about these core values. But sometimes moments sort of expose where maybe you should have done a better job on really making sure everybody understands what these core values mean.

Cole Abbott

[0:20:00]

And we've gone. We went through that a few months ago, and now we're going through a second stage of really clearly defining what the core values mean.

Mark Abbott

[0:20:08]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:20:08]

Like this looks like this. This does not mean this. Right. There's a couple in there that are a little trickier.

Mark Abbott

[0:20:15]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:20:16]

To the uninitiated, to understand.

Mark Abbott

[0:20:18]

And it's human nature to lean into the words. Like if you have, let's say, extra mile and you describe it in two or three sentences, maybe there's two words in there. And we know what those words are.

Mark Abbott

[0:20:30]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:20:31]

There are two words in there that some people over index on than extra mile.

Mark Abbott

[0:20:39]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:20:39]

And we're specifically talking about Work Life Harmony.

Mark Abbott

[0:20:42]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:20:42]

We really, genuinely want to create a culture where over the long run, people really feel like their work life and their personal life are. They're both good. They're both really good.

Mark Abbott

[0:20:56]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:20:57]

But, you know, some people may end up over indexing on Work Life Harmony, meaning that my, you know, my personal life is like, you know, my work life should never have extra mile. And I know that's not true that. But. Because we, We. We should know better than that. But I feel like on occasion, you feel like maybe there's a little bit of over indexing on extra. On. On Work Life Harmony. Because the idea was over the long run, it's not always. That's why Extra mile is the core value. Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:21:32]

And I, I think if you really pull it apart and look at it from a, you know, very far removed perspective, there are those moments where you really lean in and you all come together.

Mark Abbott

[0:21:41]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:21:42]

And it sucks. And you embrace that.

Mark Abbott

[0:21:44]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:21:44]

And you make it through that and you create something amazing because of that.

Mark Abbott

[0:21:48]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:21:48]

Or you resolve something that was very intense because that, like, I just watched a. I guess it was like a comparison of the show the Pit, which is like a hospital drama thing. I haven't seen it, but it was comparing sort of the end of the, I guess, season or show, I'm not sure, to the Battle of Helm's Deep from Lord of the Rings. And so, like the. How to write a very compelling battle. And like all the emotional things that happen and the people that find great joy in it, the people that sort of suffer from it like permanently and all those things. Is very interesting video for the most part. It's a. Well, no, it was a beautiful thing that you really brought meaning to life.

Mark Abbott

[0:22:33]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:22:34]

And it's. There's the Freud quote that I can butcher, but it's like everything is work and love and love and work. Right. Those are the two pieces of life and you want those to serve each other.

Mark Abbott

[0:22:46]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:22:47]

And if your life and work are both about service and helping other people and having that real social connection. Social and ordering and making things better and helping each other as you can in your situation. If someone else on the team is more self oriented in that and like, well, I need life. I need to just do this thing for me. And that is at the expense of the other people who are more service oriented.

Mark Abbott

[0:23:11]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:23:11]

Your version of work life harmony is not consistent with theirs.

Mark Abbott

[0:23:15]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:23:16]

And so sure, you need that time to do this thing. But ideally we want everybody on the team to be sort of working in the same directions where they're doing truly meaningful work, but they're also not letting their work take over the rest the love the rest of their life.

Mark Abbott

[0:23:34]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:23:34]

Right. And if you do that well, it's really cool.

Mark Abbott

[0:23:38]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:23:39]

But if you just have a whole group of people that are working together and the values and the principles aren't aligned and you put in something like work life harmony is a value. It's really hard to hold that because the harmony has to be. It's a very sensitive balance. And there's gonna be times where you have to lean a little bit more into here and lean a little bit more in here, but someone's gonna be suffering on one side and you need to lean in on that extra mile.

Mark Abbott

[0:24:07]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:24:08]

And so I just, it's just philosophically interesting.

Mark Abbott

[0:24:11]

Yeah. And I mean if you. And I'm not talking about anybody in our company when I, when I, when I, when I go here. But obviously if someone is just all about themselves.

Mark Abbott

[0:24:22]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:24:24]

And they sort of over index on comfort versus performance.

Mark Abbott

[0:24:32]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:24:34]

And they're on a team that, you know, is really set up where the weakest link is as strong as you can get. Like on a, you know, on a, on, on, on a. In rowing.

Mark Abbott

[0:24:52]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:24:52]

You. Right. You know better than I do.

Mark Abbott

[0:24:55]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:24:55]

You're only as. The boat's only as fast as the slowest rower.

Mark Abbott

[0:24:59]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:25:00]

Well, if you have eight people in a boat and one person's really fast, they gotta carry, I guess, eight other people.

Mark Abbott

[0:25:06]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:25:07]

And whatever. Like that's not great. That doesn't really work.

Mark Abbott

[0:25:11]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:25:12]

And you, in some situations you'd be better off just having the person row an obnoxiously large boat by themselves.

Mark Abbott

[0:25:17]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:25:17]

And then have sandwiches in the rest.

Cole Abbott

[0:25:19]

Of the seats and. Yeah. And with the sandwiches. But if you have a, like a sequence of things.

Mark Abbott

[0:25:25]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:25:26]

And yeah. I don't, I don't know if sailing probably if you're sailing a larger ship. Right. And somebody doesn't do something. Well that's, that could be catastrophic. Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:25:34]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:25:34]

You look at the, the America's cupboards.

Mark Abbott

[0:25:37]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:25:39]

Like two people fall off the boat.

Mark Abbott

[0:25:41]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:25:42]

That's like, that's not gonna be very good. Right. It's already really lean and mean and when somebody falls off, like well shoot.

Mark Abbott

[0:25:48]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:25:48]

And obviously they're capable of figuring that out.

Mark Abbott

[0:25:51]

But.

Mark Abbott

[0:25:51]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:25:51]

It's, that's. I think it's a better example because it's very high performance. A lot of things going on, different moving parts, people doing different things versus rowing kind of doing the same stuff.

Mark Abbott

[0:26:00]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:26:01]

But if you have a sequence process and somebody falls short in that and it creates bottleneck.

Mark Abbott

[0:26:06]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:26:06]

Well, okay, so we have a whole thing that's going to get done in two days.

Mark Abbott

[0:26:09]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:26:10]

And you're like well I need a week to do it. It's like well you just on your own.

Mark Abbott

[0:26:14]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:26:14]

Made it, you know what, 3x4x times.

Mark Abbott

[0:26:19]

And then go back to. And then let's just say for sake. And, and I'm really, I'm not talk about anybody on our company. I just want to say that multiple times because, because it's genuinely, it's, it's, it's genuinely true. But if you have that self oriented person who's over indexes on comfort and then not only are they late on delivery but what they deliver is completely inconsistent with what's needed.

Mark Abbott

[0:26:46]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:26:47]

I mean the whole team is going to get demoralized.

Mark Abbott

[0:26:51]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:26:51]

Within your work was for nothing because of one piece.

Mark Abbott

[0:26:55]

Right. And so, and, and then, and then so that's the, that's the obvious really. Anybody can hopefully feel that when we talk about this. Right. And then you go from being self oriented to team oriented. And personally I think this is an issue that you see much more consistently. I see it as a coach, I see it as a founder. You see the. I'm all about my team, not all about myself, but I'm all about my team. But then just like that self individual ultimately created problems for the team. You have teams that end up creating problems for the company because they're team oriented. And not company oriented. And now they. That same dynamic takes place, only this time the team didn't perform and the rest of the company was waiting for the team. Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:27:45]

There's a self versus.

Mark Abbott

[0:27:47]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:27:47]

Because I, I think there's a evolution, ego and bias awareness here.

Mark Abbott

[0:27:51]

Right?

Mark Abbott

[0:27:51]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:27:52]

But there's a self versus others mentality and then there's a self for others mentality.

Mark Abbott

[0:27:56]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:27:57]

And so if you have. You could take this self versus others thing pretty far.

Mark Abbott

[0:28:01]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:28:02]

You do us, me versus whatever. And I think you see a lot of that and really intense, not well created cultures. Right. Like a sales thing where you're trying to sabotage each other and. Yeah, it's me versus you kind of a thing. And there's a place. Sure. For that. It's not my thing.

Mark Abbott

[0:28:17]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:28:18]

And then you could scale that to the team. Like this team versus this team. Well, that's good competition there. Sure. If, if that's the way it's set up. Usually that's not how it's set up, but you're basically prioritizing the perception in the relationship, your immediate perceptions and relationships at the expense of the greater thing. Because it's like, well, it's us against them. That can create a lot of strong bonds. And then you could take it to the company level, which isn't. Which is an advancement.

Mark Abbott

[0:28:43]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:28:43]

But it's like, oh, it's us, this company versus that company.

Mark Abbott

[0:28:45]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:28:46]

And it's like, I still don't think that's a good place to be.

Mark Abbott

[0:28:49]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:28:50]

But I think that's where a lot of people are. And it'd be interesting to. You could break this down by. I'm sure there was research on this.

Mark Abbott

[0:28:55]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:28:56]

By percentage of the population.

Mark Abbott

[0:28:57]

Well, we have. We, we.

Cole Abbott

[0:28:58]

And it's industry versus thing. Right. And then you could get political parties versus each other, whereas I just hate them more than I like us. But it's like, no, eventually you want to be at the spot where it's like, no, you want to serve and you can get yourself in order, then help your team get everything in order. Then the company, then your community, so on and so forth.

Mark Abbott

[0:29:17]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:29:17]

To the point where it's like, we're doing everything for the betterment of the species.

Mark Abbott

[0:29:20]

And, and there is research on this. Right. It was done by, you know, Logan, Al in the, in the tribal leadership.

Mark Abbott

[0:29:25]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:29:26]

That, that, that book. Right. What percentage are at that bottom? Suicide bombers. And then you got I suck, but the rest of the team seems okay. And then you got me versus every, you know, I'm Great. You're not. And then you got, I'm, we're competing with others. And then you got. No, we're, we, we're on our own journey.

Mark Abbott

[0:29:43]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:29:44]

We're all about doing this and creating this and we're not worrying about other people. And they had the percentages there. And you're, you know, the, the, the first three categories. Suicide bomber, I suck. Some other people seem okay, I'm great. You're not right. That those first three levels were well over 70 plus percent of, you know, the companies that, culturally speaking, that they studied. And I could be wrong, plus or minus. But directionally, you know, the point hopefully was made. And so, yeah, when you're going through, you know, if everything's working really, really well and your pace is easy, those moments where, whether it's self oriented or team oriented or company oriented, but not vision oriented, to take it all the way to your point, those moments aren't as exposed. They don't expose your weaknesses as much as like, the faster you're growing and everybody's like, okay, so let's just go to new commercial model, right? That involved finance, it involved data, it involved customer success, it involves marketing, it involves product and engineering. I mean, it involved people, you know, the people team. People team. Right? It, it, it literally, I think, touched every single department in the company. It was crazy.

Mark Abbott

[0:31:09]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:31:10]

And so obviously didn't really hire for it.

Cole Abbott

[0:31:12]

But that's like, what's that? I mean, we didn't, we didn't hire for the thing.

Mark Abbott

[0:31:15]

No.

Cole Abbott

[0:31:16]

In terms of talent acquisition, it's like the only thing I could think of that was relatively untouched by it.

Mark Abbott

[0:31:23]

It's, it's, it's, it's interesting.

Cole Abbott

[0:31:25]

Right, but do you think that's the only time I could think of?

Mark Abbott

[0:31:27]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:31:28]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:31:29]

So probably. But I bet you if I went backwards, we could go find it. But, but the point here is, is that, you know, back to consistency and intensity, right? These moments sort of, they reveal where you have weakness. Whether it's in culture, whether it's in your guiding principles, whether it's in your forever agreements, they just expose you. Those are moments, right, where, you know, things do become intense. And, and now back to the, to the, you know, I think the bigger part of the podcast, which is you cannot sustain the level of intensity at, you know, you can't. If you think about on scale of 1 to 10, I've always said that I like people to be in the sort of the 7 to 8 range in terms of like challenge. Level of challenge.

Mark Abbott

[0:32:25]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:32:26]

But we're, we're over eight without question right now.

Mark Abbott

[0:32:29]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:32:30]

And so that's just not sustainable over the long run. So you need to, you know, you need to, you need to dial it back. But sometimes, you know, like I said, whether we, whether it's a three quarter or a full four quarter level, you know, intensity game this year, it's, it, it, you know, the first three, three quarters are pretty bloody intense. And so as a founder, right, you can look back and, and maybe I'll look back in 3 months, 6 months, 9 months, 12 months and go, you know, that was really stupid or that was amazing that we made it through without major scars or, you know, that was amazing. And now I have these scars to show. I think we'll end up with scars to show personally. But. Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, back to you, you know, the intensity and the consistency, there's, there's a little bit of, I don't know if I say you're probably smarter and better than I am on this one. It's, it's, it's not quite yin yang.

Mark Abbott

[0:33:34]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:33:35]

But the stronger you are on components of the same thing. Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:33:39]

The, the stronger you are on consistency, the more capable I think you are in enduring occasional intensity.

Cole Abbott

[0:33:48]

Well, it's like you view it as a fitness thing. Yeah, Right. I think the intensity for one is a hermetic. Right. Temporary but beneficial stressor when applied appropriately. And so it will. Right. If you have hermetic stress in the body, it's good because it helps you clean things out.

Mark Abbott

[0:34:06]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:34:06]

Things that aren't are necessary dead cells, whatever.

Mark Abbott

[0:34:09]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:34:10]

It helps you shed that, for lack of a better phrase, dead weight. And so in the company it helps to illuminate possible issues.

Mark Abbott

[0:34:19]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:34:19]

Or that you, that would have just gone unnoticed, stayed in the shadows had you not experienced a period of greater challenge. And so the more we can do that appropriately or, and do it consistently, just like exercising, the stronger we become. Right. We're in an antifragile system and complex adaptive systems tend to be anti. Fragile.

Mark Abbott

[0:34:44]

Yes.

Cole Abbott

[0:34:44]

Meaning that when an appropriate amount of stress are applied, the system grows stronger.

Mark Abbott

[0:34:49]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:34:49]

There's gonna be a little period of weakness for recovery and then eventually stronger. And I think, you know, a lot of people would say antifragile. Like no, it just gets stronger. It's like that's not really how that works. You need to recover or you need to learn.

Mark Abbott

[0:35:02]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:35:03]

And adapt.

Mark Abbott

[0:35:03]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:35:04]

And then you're stronger. But there's always going to be a moment of reflection and recovery where you are weaker.

Mark Abbott

[0:35:09]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:35:11]

And, and, and, and let's go even a little bit darker. You can hurt yourself.

Cole Abbott

[0:35:19]

You can. So what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. It's like. Well, sometimes it does. Sometimes you're just dead or sometimes you're just. You're.

Mark Abbott

[0:35:26]

But you could be.

Cole Abbott

[0:35:26]

But there's a, there's a Norm McDonald's joke on that that I won't say.

Mark Abbott

[0:35:30]

But yeah, most norm.

Cole Abbott

[0:35:33]

So. Oh, I want to say. I'm not going to say it, but yeah, you could just become permanently wounded from the thing. Oh, you're mentally stronger. Like. Well, sometimes you're also not. Sometimes you're just permanently scarred and you.

Mark Abbott

[0:35:46]

Or you break your, you know, you, you're doing a workout and you break your. Break a bone as an example.

Mark Abbott

[0:35:50]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:35:50]

Or you rip a muscle and, and all of a sudden now you know, that's obviously going too far because now you, now you can't.

Mark Abbott

[0:36:01]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:36:02]

If you were stronger, that same stimulus would not have resulted in failure.

Mark Abbott

[0:36:10]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:36:10]

That would have resulted in progression.

Mark Abbott

[0:36:12]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:36:12]

Right. So if you. Yours, there's a proximal zone of, of growth and development.

Mark Abbott

[0:36:16]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:36:16]

Right. It's like just outside of what you're capable of. And you want to strive for that.

Mark Abbott

[0:36:19]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:36:20]

But you gotta be very aware of and intentional and confident as to what that zone looks like.

Mark Abbott

[0:36:29]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:36:30]

Because if you try to push that, well, that's. You're just not going to get anything out of it or you're going to hurt yourself.

Mark Abbott

[0:36:35]

And I think now going back to the, to the topic at hand, right. Which is if you look at consistency and intensity, what hopefully, you know, we've gotten into in some decent level of, you know, of explanation, is that the more consistent you're working on, making sure that you can become more and more intense.

Mark Abbott

[0:37:09]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:37:09]

And you can take on bigger challenges the more you're built to sort of go faster. But if you're, if you have consistency issues, consistency is, it's not just, you know, I think most people think about consistency is just rhythm. It's not just rhythm. Right. It's is. Are you consistently looking at things the same way? Are you consistently respecting the brand? Are you consistently respecting the forever agreements? Are you consistently hiring people that are great core value fits? Are you consistently looking at all of your, all of your gauges on your dashboard to make sure everything's right? You know, are you consistently sort of doing the things that you need to do in order to be going faster and faster and be. Become bigger and stronger?

Mark Abbott

[0:38:06]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:38:07]

That is a part of this, when we talk about consistency, it's not just consistency. And know every week we have a meeting, right. It's, there's a lot more things that go into quote, unquote consistency. So back to operating systems, right? They are there to help you become more and more consistent so that you can take on bigger, better, stronger challenges as an organization. And so being aware of how you're doing in terms of consistency is super important. And then ultimately, I think some of the intensity things, especially from a founder's perspective, go up and down and up and down more than they should because you're dealing with consistency issues. And so if you're dealing with consistency issues and you're trying to go fast when you have these consistency issues, it's, it's not just a grind, right, for you. It's, you know, there's no question other people are feeling the, the pain, right. Associated with grinding through things when the reality is reason we're grinding is because we're actually not as consistent as we think we are. We're not really all on the same page in terms of certain things, right. Some people are over indexing on some things, some people are over indexing on other things, some people worry about things that some things are more important than others. And you just got this like this issue around consistency that's in creating intensity moments. And there's this. It can be either really, it could be a virtuous loop or it can be the opposite of that. Right. Which it starts to expose challenges and issues.

Cole Abbott

[0:39:54]

Intensity is the compounded result of intentionally applied and dialed in consistency. And if you have, if you look at it like is a pyramid, it's kind of like a VO2 max. Yeah, analogy. But if you look at like a pyramid and your, your base of the pyramid is your consistency and then your, the height is your intensity, right. You want to grow the pyramid, but if you have a really thin, narrow pyramid, that's not going to go very well, right? So you want to really work on that base, that foundation and also consistently applying the intensity, right. You just grow a little bit, get a little bit, get a little bit, right. That enables you to be capable of greater and greater amounts of relative intensity, right. And then you apply both a greater intensity or ever increasing intensity on top of a consistent work product, well then you're just going to have at least in the quality and the value of what you're providing. Exponential growth.

Mark Abbott

[0:40:59]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:41:00]

I mean one way of looking at it too, right. Is I like the diagram metaphor, but you know, intensity one Version of intensity is just, you know, is rate of growth and another way of looking at it is just revenue.

Mark Abbott

[0:41:20]

Right?

Mark Abbott

[0:41:20]

So you know, if you got a business that's built for 20 million and all of a sudden you stack 100 million on it, right. There's no way that foundation is going to support it, period. Into discussion, right? So in that situation, it, you know, you know darn well it's going to be customer success as an example. That's, that's going to just.

Mark Abbott

[0:41:38]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:41:38]

Could.

Mark Abbott

[0:41:39]

It could be, it could be product, it could be, you know, it could be the infrastructure, you know, it could be, could be sim, as simple as the billing system.

Mark Abbott

[0:41:49]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:41:49]

I mean, who knows exactly what would be, you know, what would be exposed at that moment. But the point is, is that, you know, you just, you, you were not built for that level of quote, unquote intensity.

Cole Abbott

[0:42:01]

You had not adapted, you had not yet adapted to that.

Mark Abbott

[0:42:04]

Yeah. Level of intensity. You just didn't, you didn't have the ability to carry that burden.

Cole Abbott

[0:42:08]

How would you frame up the. So I think it's important to have a pulse on the company and be aware of what's going on. Right. This is a. Ignorance is not bliss here.

Mark Abbott

[0:42:22]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:42:24]

Anything in business. But how do you see the value of one on ones and quarterly conversations in having a confident sense for the team's ability or the team's status when it comes to dealing with and working with any, you know, a level of intensity at any given moment?

Mark Abbott

[0:42:51]

We've consistently had weekly meetings. We've consistently had weekly team meetings and weekly one on one meetings. We've consistently done quarterly conversations and yet those were insufficient for us to really understand.

Mark Abbott

[0:43:05]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:43:05]

How much intensity was being experienced by the entire company as we've gone through this. So they're not sufficient. I think, you know, as much as like, as a founder, I, I'm like, you know, succeed or escalate.

Mark Abbott

[0:43:19]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:43:19]

Which is if there's an issue, you need to let us know. It's one thing to say this, it's another thing for people to actually embrace it.

Mark Abbott

[0:43:28]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:43:28]

And a lot of people aren't aware enough of the situation to be able to voice the concern like, oh, I feel fine, I feel, I'm feeling good. This is good. And then it's, well then a little bit of a wind comes.

Mark Abbott

[0:43:40]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:43:41]

And it knocks you over. And then your perspective changes on things, your attitude.

Mark Abbott

[0:43:45]

Well, well, yeah, but, but, but you know, you can look at this from the individual, the team leader, you know, the department, you know, the company perspective and And I would say that, you know, sometimes, you know, the individuals may be comfortable talking about stuff with their team leader, but the team leader sort of may be more over indexing on the comfort of the team versus really addressing the issue at the, you know, with. With their, with their leader. And so, you know, there's. There's a host of reasons, you know, why you end up going, well, wait a second, right? This is a lot more. Feels like there's a lot more intensity than.

Cole Abbott

[0:44:23]

If you try to.

Mark Abbott

[0:44:24]

Felt like. We feel. You feel like you're going through the moment with more cultural health than you actually are. Because once again, back to, you know, maybe you don't have all the gauges that you wish you had. Like, one of the things I've wanted to build since literally day one is just a, you know, just a, you know, a. A weekly pulseometer that you send out to everybody. And it's like smiley, you know, And.

Cole Abbott

[0:44:54]

I go back, I forgot what the company is, but there's a company that does this.

Mark Abbott

[0:44:58]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:44:59]

And it's simple.

Cole Abbott

[0:44:59]

Literally, smiley face, like, how are we feeling, guys? And then it's like, yes.

Mark Abbott

[0:45:04]

And it's. And it's simple, you know, maybe it's a frowny face, it's a grumbly face. Right. Or a neutral face and a smiley face and a super happy face. Right, Whatever. And. And then if, and then if it's less than a smiley face. Right. As an example.

Cole Abbott

[0:45:18]

Right. Personally, I feel like we overdo things where it's just like, oh, the norm or the expectation is that it's, you know, 10 out of 10 are a positive.

Mark Abbott

[0:45:27]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:45:27]

And I think you miss out on a lot of positive feedback that could be had. Right. This is very much my opinion.

Mark Abbott

[0:45:34]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:45:35]

But like, we have a meeting, it's like, oh, everyone's just a 10. And it was just normal meeting.

Mark Abbott

[0:45:38]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:45:38]

It's like there are times we have meetings and it's an awesome meeting and I would like to be able to know, like, hey, that meeting was great.

Mark Abbott

[0:45:44]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:45:45]

Whoever ran did a great job and be able to find the thing.

Mark Abbott

[0:45:47]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:45:47]

Because there's nothing better than a 10.

Mark Abbott

[0:45:48]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:45:48]

And if normal is a 10, it's like, that's stupid.

Mark Abbott

[0:45:50]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:45:51]

And if someone says it's a nine. Yeah. And we've had this in some situations, but I can't leave anything recently. It's like, why is it a nine? It's like, you should be able to say it's a nine.

Mark Abbott

[0:45:59]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:45:59]

And I'm, I'm thinking of Audra right now because she's very honest how she rates things. And I. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. So. And I think there's also an element in quarterly conversations where you're missing a little bit of that. Of that room.

Mark Abbott

[0:46:14]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:46:15]

Where it's like. Yeah. If something's a 4 out of 5, like, as you said, you're feeling a 7 out of 10 something. Right. Like, that's pretty good.

Mark Abbott

[0:46:20]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:46:20]

Right. We don't, you know.

Mark Abbott

[0:46:21]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:46:21]

There's times where it's like we wanna be really good and then something strays from that. And when the expectation in the norm is to have somebody be a 10 outta 10 or a 5 out of 5 or 3 outta 3, if we're using the, you know, the more qualitative stuff.

Mark Abbott

[0:46:32]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:46:33]

And you diverge from that. Well, then there's a sort of a stigma around that in a way.

Mark Abbott

[0:46:38]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:46:38]

And so you don't really wanna do that.

Mark Abbott

[0:46:39]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:46:40]

And so I. Right. I just think it's less transparent, at least how we practice it.

Mark Abbott

[0:46:44]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:46:45]

And it maybe should be.

Mark Abbott

[0:46:46]

Well, we literally had this conversation yesterday. This conversation we're having right now. We, I had it with a bunch of the. And so we're, I'm.

Mark Abbott

[0:46:56]

We're.

Mark Abbott

[0:46:57]

We all acknowledge that like the system that we have could be stronger, give us better signal to noise ratio. And you know, going back to the point here, the point is that, you know, even with weeklies and quarterly discussions, my belief perspective is that our current systems as done. And I. And we've been saying we need to upgrade them for a while in terms of like what you're talking about. We're insufficient. Are insufficient in terms of having really good signal to noise ratio.

Mark Abbott

[0:47:35]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:47:35]

And part of its culture, part of its systems.

Mark Abbott

[0:47:39]

Right.

Cole Abbott

[0:47:40]

And the systems in how they get used. Right. Not how they were intended to be used.

Mark Abbott

[0:47:44]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:47:46]

They're only as good as the culture. Right. If you have the great system and the culture's like, no, everything's great, it's all fine. You know, thinking that meme with the dog and just like fire. Spongebob thing. Right. Or the house is on fire and just sitting there like, everything's fine. I am fine. This is great. Right. And it's like you could tell yourself that. And that's the culture where you just kind of hide everything.

Mark Abbott

[0:48:04]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:48:05]

And you, you know, like. Well, if I say I'm fine and everyone thinks I'm doing well and that's good. And it's like silence. Kind of like a Black mirror episode.

Mark Abbott

[0:48:11]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:48:11]

But a lot of people will prioritize the perception of things. And it's like if I tell myself it's good, it's good. Right. That's sure. You know, you should probably get off tick tock for a little bit. Yeah. And so. Right. The system can be great, but it's only as good as how it's used. Same thing with, we have a lot of, I'd say, heuristics that make sense in how they were intended.

Mark Abbott

[0:48:32]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:48:32]

But in how they're viewed and put into practice are actually not good.

Mark Abbott

[0:48:37]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:48:37]

I mean we, and we, I think we've talked about this before.

Mark Abbott

[0:48:39]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:48:40]

But it's like you stand back and you look at, we talked about earlier, work, life, harmony may not be serving us as well as we wanted it to be. Right. So, so, so you gotta talk about that. And then truthful, pacific, specific and positive versus like truthful, specific and constructive. Maybe over indexing on the word positive versus, you know, constructive would be more useful. So back to heuristics. Right. You know, we're doing, you know, we're trying to do all the things that we can to create an organization that can build that, that we envision building and grow at the pace that we want to grow. But you know, it's, it's, it's, it's interesting, you know, growing at a hundred percent when you're small versus growing at 100% when you've got, you know, 150 people.

Cole Abbott

[0:49:33]

Those are stages.

Mark Abbott

[0:49:34]

They're. Yeah, they're just very different. And that, that served you well. Those heuristics, those tools, those frameworks that served you well in stage three, all.

Cole Abbott

[0:49:46]

Of a sudden you're like, they're not.

Mark Abbott

[0:49:46]

Serving us so well in stage four.

Cole Abbott

[0:49:48]

Well, you can't explain it to everybody. You're not having regular interactions with people to reinforce what you meant by the heuristic.

Mark Abbott

[0:49:53]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:49:54]

Right. So it's up to their interpretation. And some things are going to have possibly bad interpretations.

Mark Abbott

[0:49:59]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:50:00]

So to close out, if you had to just give one piece of advice to a founder stuck in grind mode.

Mark Abbott

[0:50:06]

Yeah.

Cole Abbott

[0:50:06]

What would it be?

Mark Abbott

[0:50:09]

Look at your systems.

Mark Abbott

[0:50:11]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:50:12]

Look at, you know, look at your, look at your forever agreements. Look at your principles, obviously, you know, take a look and see whether or not, you know, you and your senior leadership team are all on the same page in terms of what matters. If the foundation is pretty strong across, you know, the board, then I'm curious why you're grinding. Right. Are you grinding because you're wanting the team to grow? And this is Classic, right? You're wanting the team to grow at like 40%, but the team only wants to grow at 20%. And you're not really having that conversation. Right, so is there inconsistency, right, in terms of expectations? We, you know, we hate expectations.

Mark Abbott

[0:51:02]

Right.

Mark Abbott

[0:51:02]

We like agreements. So just sit and talk about what's going on and what you're feeling and what they're feeling. And, okay, so is it structure? Is it process? Is it systems? Is it pace? Is it visibility? Is it culture? You know, and then on a scale of 1 to 10, you know, with 10 being this is a burning fire and 1 being no, it's like this is perfect or do it the opposite. Whatever you want to do, you know, you got to just look at, take a look at things and decide what your priorities are. And then once again, you know, you need to figure out how to confidently and sustainably do the 90 day march together, where 90% of the time, you're hitting everything. And, you know, you look at our history, and I think, you know, we've hit 90 of our rocks for, you know, seven, eight years, but we're still in a moment of grind right now. So entropy's everywhere. You gotta constantly talking and checking in and, and, and, and figuring out based upon where you are developmentally, what are the things you should prioritize for the next quarter. Don't throw new stuff on right now. Wait until your quarterly planning and say, okay, guys, we all know that these are some things we need to work on, and let's all get on the same page in terms of what our priorities are for the next quarter so that we can reduce the level of intensity that we're all experiencing right now.

Cole Abbott

[0:52:38]

All right? Thank you.

Mark Abbott

[0:52:40]

You're welcome.