Coaching Beyond The Mechanics

Mark Abbott
[0:00:05]
Cullen Talley.

Cullen Talley
[0:00:06]
Yes, sir.

Mark Abbott
[0:00:06]
It's been, we've known each other now for going on probably over eight years or nine, eight or nine years.

Cullen Talley
[0:00:15]
Yeah. Close to nine. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Abbott
[0:00:17]
And when we met you were in sort of, you're at the beginning, was, is, was it the beginning of you as a coach?

Cullen Talley
[0:00:26]
Yes, I had zero clients and I was just learning this. I just made a decision two days earlier, not two days, two months earlier to venture down this path and was in the very early stages of what it meant to be a coach, build a coaching business, which is different than just being a coach. And yeah, that's when we met. Very fortuitous for me. Yeah.

Mark Abbott
[0:00:46]
And for me.

Cullen Talley
[0:00:46]
Yeah.

Mark Abbott
[0:00:48]
Before that, take us back through the whole career journey and obviously emphasize the entrepreneurial side of it.

Cullen Talley
[0:00:56]
Sure. Yeah. So started out in retail, figured out that the margins in that business aren't really good. So learned a lot there in those days, college and beyond. But then got in the payments business. And there was a lot of innovation happening in payments, kind of early 2000s. And so just noticed how interested I was in that, was fortunate to connect with a very aggressive company that was doing some really cool things and competing with much larger companies. So watching that CEO and that leadership team take market share from people who had more resources, a bigger brand, it was just an amazing thing to be a part of. And during that time, got connected with some of the private investors in that space. And then spent 15 years with that group helping take ideas to market, scale those. Some moved just to operating those companies and other times exits. One of the key ones was in 2005, 2006, was part of the kind of the angel team at a company called Firethorn out of Atlanta. And we were the first mobile banking provider. It seems normal today, but at the time, we were trying to get carriers who didn't like each other very much to cooperate because it needed to be on the phone. And remember, there's no app store at this point in time, so you got to get preloaded on the phone. We had to get banks to cooperate because we were doing a consolidated app. They didn't want to do that, so we had to leverage the carrier. So this cooperation and then helping people who are making decisions who didn't necessarily need those services. So if you're a very senior executive at a bank or on a board or whatever, you probably aren't worried about checking your balance every day. So helping them understand what's happening at the consumer level, what's happening consumer there. So built that company. We were 20 people, very committed to a vision and a plan. We were competing against the biggest technology players in the market. We actually won a huge deal with Verizon. And after that happened, Qualcomm came in and made a $220 million acquisition of us and bolted us into their whole mobile financial services market. We were the domain expert in that. So again, one of the great lessons was a small group of very committed people, clear about what they were trying to do, can have a tremendous impact and you create great value for your shareholders. All of them didn't go that way. We had some other ones that we got into where, one in particular, where we really over-capitalized, raised too much money, the market wasn't mature in this card-linked offer space, and really had to retool the company several times. So just so fortunate to have met and was given the position I was to be part of those teams. So that was really the forming part of that, because I got to go from, you know, literally idea to test, to operationalize, to friction about like really scaling, and then again, either operationalizing and stabilizing or exiting the company into a larger entity.

Mark Abbott
[0:03:37]
And what was the last thing you did and what was going through your head when you're trying to figure out whether or not I want to do this thing again?

Cullen Talley
[0:03:45]
Yeah.

Mark Abbott
[0:03:45]
Did you ever, did you, were you mostly on the ops side or did you, did you ever have the experience as a founder, as an example, or, you know, what was your role in?

Cullen Talley
[0:03:57]
Yeah. Yeah. I joke cause right out of college, me and a buddy opened a snowball stand. So I was a founder of a snowball stand and I do, I do joke with clients, stuff like that. Having to learn pricing, labor, material. There was a lot of value in that, in that little building and, and we did great. And we sold it a few years later and stuff like that. So I, that's right. I did that. I was more front end. So I was more sales, uh, bringing that to market. So you think biz dev and sales more, but I was fascinated with product development, was fascinating about the operation. So, and, and quite frankly, I mentioned that payments company, that CEO, um, Ed Labrie, At one point, we were at lunch, and I'd had a lot of success as a sales guy. I was top five every year out of 300 and all this kind of stuff. And I was pretty full of myself in my 20s, and I was like, what do I need to do next? He said, you need to learn the rest of the effing business, because right now, you're only so valuable to me. And it was a critical moment for me, because it woke me up to, if I want to grow my career, I need to see more broadly. But back to your question, in the last role I had, I'd actually moved into a COO role. family that had a group of companies, and they'd asked me to come in because they'd seen some of the background I had. So we actually moved to California and was there and got introduced to this work, this idea of running mid-sized companies with some tools and some systems and stuff like that in a way that the larger companies I had been in, we had. We had those consultants come in. We did that planning and stuff like that, but I'd never really seen it for small to mid-sized companies. So that was my last experience, and we took that company in the year that I was there. We doubled the revenue and tripled the profit. And we had team members 17, 18 years old, and we had some pretty senior team members. And a light bulb went off for me, like, this is powerful. And I had always been committed to the company I was with. I was like, man, I think I can go do this and do this and make a bigger impact with more companies. And that was the original idea. Very divine moment for me. It was a lot of soul searching, a lot of introspection on that. So to me, I'll tell you, it really being a God moment in terms of that moment of, because I feel like there was kind of a moment of download in that. And that was the spark that said, let's go figure this out.

Mark Abbott
[0:05:56]
And what, how'd you find EOS?

Cullen Talley
[0:06:00]
Uh, we had hired an implementer when I was at there. So that was my original connection was, was we hired an implementer at that company and he came in and brought us through the process.

Mark Abbott
[0:06:09]
How long was that process for you guys then?

Cullen Talley
[0:06:12]
Well, I was there for just over a year. So basically, right around a year.

Mark Abbott
[0:06:16]
Were they still in the process when you left?

Cullen Talley
[0:06:19]
Yes. And then it kind of petered out because I was really the one holding it together. And that founder is a very, what's the next thing, the next thing, the next thing. So anyway, not necessarily as committed to that same process all the time.

Mark Abbott
[0:06:35]
Yeah, it's, uh, you know, I would say that founder's more of an entrepreneur than a founder then, would you agree?

Cullen Talley
[0:06:42]
Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Abbott
[0:06:43]
So some, some people just can't, I mean, they just need the adrenaline rush of the next thing. Right. And it's, and it's kind of like whatever. their needs are bigger than the needs of the team, the company, because it's just how they're wired. Right.

Cullen Talley
[0:06:58]
That's where they get their juice from. Yeah. And, and he's done amazing things, but yeah, that was, as he continued to be a serial entrepreneur, he has, uh, but at the same time, scale has not been a thing that they've been able to reach, but yeah, it's been able to create and, uh, do that, but not at a level that you could see the real opportunity to scale the business. And that was really what I was there for in the beginning. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Abbott
[0:07:20]
And so, so you had this experience with EOS, um, and then was it, you know, you had the download.

Cullen Talley
[0:07:27]
Yup.

Mark Abbott
[0:07:28]
And, uh, and was it pretty much, I'm going to just go do this cause I know EOS. I, you know, I understand that. And you talked to the implementer about potentially joining the, uh, the community or what was the process?

Cullen Talley
[0:07:38]
I did. I talked to, I talked to, yeah, so I looked into the certification. I looked at, you know, multiple systems. I looked at EOS, I looked at scaling up, I looked at, I think 40X had a system. There was a couple of different systems out there. Obviously, I was most familiar, but it was the only one that I knew. And so that's where I went. But I also thought I didn't want to just do that. So I actually went and got certified in exit planning at the same time. Because I come from the world about building value, not just having a successful company. How do we build something that has real enterprise value? Because I was used to having investors and shareholders in the company. And so went to BEI and got certified in that one week, and then the next week I got certified in EOS. And so my vision in the beginning was really connecting with that. And my original thesis was I was only going to work with investors who were making investments, and then for their companies. And that's not how it's turned out. But my initial thesis was I'm not calling on individual investors. companies, I'm going to be dealing with investors that are making these investments, who are great at financial models and predicting, but aren't so good at helping operate companies. And then I would be that arm. And we've done some of that, but it really hasn't how the business is laid out.

Mark Abbott
[0:08:43]
It's amazing, right, how, well, we can go down a whole rabbit hole in that. So, BEI, right, was that Business Exit Institute or what was it?

Cullen Talley
[0:08:51]
Yeah, Business Enterprise Institute or something like that. There's two of them. It's not the CEPA group. It's the other group out of Denver.

Mark Abbott
[0:08:56]
Exit Planning Institute, which is the CEPA group. Yeah, right. It's not them.

Cullen Talley
[0:09:00]
Yeah, they're huge.

Mark Abbott
[0:09:01]
They're huge now.

Cullen Talley
[0:09:02]
Yeah, at the time, they were kind of what, but that group, the Exit Planning Institute, has done a great job on that front.

Mark Abbott
[0:09:07]
Yeah, we're one of their partners.

Cullen Talley
[0:09:09]
Yeah, and one of the coaches on my team is a CEPA, stuff like that. So, we think it's tremendous.

Mark Abbott
[0:09:13]
Yeah, yeah, they've done a really good job of figuring out how to position it. And, you know, it's, it's kind of funny because, you know, you can get the CEPA, you talk about it. It's, it's just theirs. They just made it up. It's like, it sounds like a CPA, right? But, you know, CPA wasn't invented by one firm to the best of my knowledge, whereas they created CEPA. Now they sort of dominate in this industry they created. So hats off to them.

Cullen Talley
[0:09:38]
Yeah. Agreed. Yeah.

Mark Abbott
[0:09:40]
So, um, so it's interesting. So you, you looked at scaling up, you, you looked at EOS 40X. Is 40X around anymore?

Cullen Talley
[0:09:48]
I don't think so. I don't think so.

Mark Abbott
[0:09:50]
Um, and then you joined EOS, but you also got the, the, the exit planning certification. Um, you know, it's funny when I first started to really go the direction that we have today, it was, um, You know, it was around 2012, right? And I went and, you know, I had the idea for the company in 2005, but, you know, I got recruited to hedge fund and did a bunch of different things. And one of the companies I invested in personally was just starting on EOS, right, in 2010, I think. Um, and, you know, so I read traction. I'm like, well, this is a book I was going to write when I first started thinking about in 2005. And, um, and so I went in there, but with the background that I have private equity, right. I was like, look, I understand the private equity world really, really well. Just kind of grew up in that world. I grew up with that world really, cause it was leveraged buyouts back when I started. And I just knew that in order to really go after that industry and to have something compelling for it, I had to have like, you know, these five things figured out and nailed in the product. And to this day, I still haven't, don't have them all nailed. I feel like we're getting really, really close. And so, so, so, I mean, I'm literally putting resources right now behind, okay, this is what we got to do so we can finally get in front of these people. Because I think every company is going to have to have what I'll call a level seven operating system within the next couple of years, or else it's gonna be really hard for them to be successful. And with a level seven operating system, if you don't have it, I think you're going to be at risk. If you're trying to do things with AI, if you have agents, you can't see everything, you're gonna be at risk that things are gonna get screwed up. And as a fiduciary, as a board member, part of your responsibility is to make sure that the governance layer of an organization is very strong, and now the new organizations are going to have both on humans and non-humans, and so they're distributed organizations, and it's just going to be really interesting. So I think we're going to be in a really good place to go after the private equity and venture capital firms and say, hey, you need to be thinking about this, and hey, your companies need to be going this direction, and hey, we can help you. But that's a long, you know, that's, that's, that's foreshadowing or get in front of ourselves right now. So going back to the, um, you join, you join EOS and, uh, what do you think of the coaching, like your experience back in 20, 2018? How has the industry, what you do, how you deliver value, how's it evolved for you in particular? You now have your own firm, right? You teach your own system. All operating systems have a lot of tools that are concepts, tools, and disciplines that everybody pushes, believes in weekly meetings as an example. You know, you need an accountability chart or an org chart as an example, right? You need scorecards as an example. There's a bunch of stuff that it, right. from system to system to system, the tools are the same. It's like building a house, right? Everybody's got, you know, all the builders have hammers and saws and screwdrivers and things like that. But a lot's changed too.

Cullen Talley
[0:13:44]
100%. Yeah.

Mark Abbott
[0:13:46]
So take me through, I'd love to hear your journey in terms of, you know, what you've learned, what you emphasize, because you went through EOS, You also been associated with scaling up.

Cullen Talley
[0:14:01]
Yep.

Mark Abbott
[0:14:02]
So, and those are kind of the two biggest.

Cullen Talley
[0:14:04]
Yeah. And, and in between there, we did some time with the Pinnacle group as well.

Mark Abbott
[0:14:07]
Right. And, and, and, and so, and then you, you could say for a while, Pinnacle may have been third.

Cullen Talley
[0:14:12]
Yep.

Mark Abbott
[0:14:13]
Right.

Cullen Talley
[0:14:14]
Yep.

Mark Abbott
[0:14:14]
Um, but really, you know, cause then, then you also have a couple others, um, like Jack Stack, I forget what he calls it, but, I don't see them or hear about them much, but I don't know if you do. Yeah, we don't.

Cullen Talley
[0:14:28]
But yeah, so to answer your question in terms of the evolution, you know, when I got in, I think part of it and part of it was the system at the beginning was, I think, more the tactics, the mechanics of running the system. I think it was overly operationally focused, and I can understand oftentimes there's a lot of people in operations, there's a lot of opportunity financially in operations. What we've noticed is our clients, and we've been fortunate to attract larger and larger clients, more complex clients, We need to be able to speak across the business. And so one of the things I've noticed is a lot of the coaches were good in A area. Maybe they were financially driven, they'd come from finance, they'd come from ops. And very few, interestingly enough, came to me from the front end, the marketing and sales piece of the business. A few with some tech capabilities and so forth. But what I've noticed for us is we need to be adept at speaking across the business. It can't just be very ops oriented. And that's why I think even operating systems sometimes is not helpful. So for us, we have recognized you have to be, and when we're evaluating a new coaching candidate to join the team, I need to see that they understand marketing, sales, ops, finance, people, technology. Like, they've got to have, and there's others, obviously, depending on the industry, right? They've got to have that ability to speak across this. You don't have to be an expert, but you can't be incapable. And, you know, for us, one of the things that we notice is a lot of the coaches struggle on the front end for their business, and I'm like, If you as a coach aren't able to deliver a message to the market and close and take people through a sales process, that's a concern. And I think some of the clients are picking up on that. Certainly, we've had the opportunity to win deals at multiples of what other people were charging. And that's really been some of the feedback for us. We're like, we can see the conviction. We can see the obsession you have about it. But as I got into it, the next thing that I noticed was many of the systems really lacked a couple, three things to me. Number one, they lacked financial rigor. There was some basic predicting and basic performance, but there was not real financial rigor in looking at margins, looking at variances, looking at trends, looking at ratios. And especially in the world we've been in the last five years, with the sheer number of changes we've had in terms of interest rates and tariffs and supply chain and obviously the pandemic, there's a lot that's happened that's had a material impact to finance. So that was the first piece. And I noticed, though, I talked to a lot of the coaches, that's happened. So we're seeing an evolution there. That's what we're tracking. The other is really leadership development, because the systems lack that. And there are certainly leadership programs. But I'm always like, what changed the next day or the next week if we're going to train on something? And that's one of the things I thought, you know, EOS did incredibly well. And one of the things that I saw early on, and that, you know, We've retained in the way that we do some things. There's a obsession around, can I teach you something that facilitates you through something? And tomorrow and next week, you're a different person, different company. Not all the way fixed, but materially different. And I have been obsessed about the leadership development side. Because as the companies we've had that have scaled 50, 100, 200, 500 employees, it's a different game than 10, 15, 20 in terms of that thing. Because at 10, 15, 20, you can kind of keep your hands on everything. You know what I'm saying? You're not really developing leaders You've got a leader, a few leaders, and then you've got basically people doing the work that are incredibly valuable, we want to take care of them, but you're not having those layers of that, right? And obviously that's getting challenged right now in terms of how many layers we need and all that. So leadership development was the second thing that we really focused on in terms of that. And the last was really strategy.

Mark Abbott
[0:17:48]
Right?

Cullen Talley
[0:17:48]
Because to me, strategies are a word that gets thrown around a lot, but they're not really talking about, I think a lot of systems had vision and they had some execution, but I felt like there was this massive chasm about what is the strategy that we're going to go execute against beyond just this vision of who we believe we are. are, and what we're committed to, and this kind of softer things that are really powerful. And here's our one-year plan, and here's the spreadsheet of things we're going to do. What is the strategy we're going to take to the market? And as, again, as we get bigger, more important. Because obviously, when we're smaller, we'll take whatever work to stay. I joke about some of this concept. When you started, you were just trying not to die. Cash was oxygen. We're trying not to die. So for me, that's where the evolution has come in and the success that we've experienced in our growth. being an Inc. 5000 company and the success we've had in terms of now we're coaching over currently over $1.5 billion in coach revenue currently. So it's material. And I think those three things have really helped us. And I think that's where the evolution to me of the coaches that are doing that. And certainly we can have a whole other conversation about the AI component, everything else. But that to me is where the coaching, where I see some of the coaching systems and people struggling as they haven't adapted to what the owners and key leaders need. And I think those three things to me have been critical for our success and where some of these systems are kind of getting left behind.

Mark Abbott
[0:19:05]
Right. Are they getting left behind in your opinion? by the companies who need more because they're scaling faster and or they're larger? Or do you think just generally speaking that the operating system coaching business, even for companies with 25 to 50 employees, do you feel the same level of change taking place or do you feel like.

Cullen Talley
[0:19:40]
Yeah.

Mark Abbott
[0:19:41]
The demand is like, no, we got to.

Cullen Talley
[0:19:43]
Yeah.

Mark Abbott
[0:19:43]
The expectation is growing.

Cullen Talley
[0:19:44]
I mean, I mean, entrepreneurs and founders are getting smarter. Obviously margins are getting compressed in a lot of businesses, stuff like that. So, um, they're just sharper and their access to information and data.

Mark Abbott
[0:19:53]
Right.

Cullen Talley
[0:19:53]
You know? So I think the challenge for a lot of systems is. their IP or their kind of, you know, folks that have been there a long time that are loudest voices in the room are staying committed to that system. It's like, it's kind of like, you know, we're in football season now, right? And it's like, you know, at one point, you know, defense was a bigger part of it. You can use, I'm an LSU fan, but we'll talk about Nick Saban for a minute. You know, at one point, obviously, Lane Kiffin's our coach now, but at one point, you know, obviously, Saban was very, very committed to defense. It was not, but then he recognized the game was changing, and they had to adapt, and they did, and they dominated, but they adapted with a much more offensive view of things, and this is where I think many of the systems are not moving fast enough, and I think part of it is because of how hard it is. Part of it is you got some tenured folks who just, well, this is how, I've been doing this 20, 30 years, and I'm really successful. I'm like, yeah, but the world has changed. And the other part is, what are we actually protecting in terms of our, our books, our IP and all that kind of stuff. And like, how do I take the thing and then adjust?

Mark Abbott
[0:20:53]
Right.

Cullen Talley
[0:20:55]
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's been a challenge for sure. Yeah.

Mark Abbott
[0:20:58]
And then has the, has your model, your delivery model, You know, the EOS delivery model as an example, and I think you understand the scaling up model. The EOS model was five sessions, right, five day-long sessions a year. First year, different combination of days versus thereafter, right? Thereafter is three quarterlies and two days for the annual. But it was really five sessions, and for lots of coaches, implementers if it's an EOS thing, right, you didn't need to, and in some regards maybe it was even healthy to, not really be engaging with the client in between those five sessions, and those sessions are spread out 90 days, right? Where's your world and how do you guys play it these days?

Cullen Talley
[0:21:58]
So what I refuse to be is a fractional employee. So let me just say that right up front. That said, what I have come to notice is there absolutely has to be other interaction. A couple things for us. Number one, we have, that framework makes sense. Lots of people do quarterly planning, annual planning. That's not new to you. But yes, that model makes sense. Yes, there's more work on the implementation, what we call implementation up front, in terms of getting this system in. Is it three days? Is it four days? Kind of depends on the client. And can we do it in 30 days, six days? There's some flexibility there based on what the client needs and our calendars and so forth. Once the client is implemented and up and running, our approach is really on-demand advisory. So I use a lot of voice apps because I don't want my calendar to be full, but I have voice notes every single day from owners and key leaders on a particular topic, an update, a question they have for me and stuff like that. So we have that open. What I joke with them and say is, you got a bat phone with me and my coaches, meaning When you need to put the bat signal up and you need us, there's going to be some days you need to talk to me three times. And we end up talking again for a month. But you need to know in that moment, I'm close enough, but far enough. I'm emotionally invested, but it's not mine. And I'm not financially tied to the result. So you've got somebody who knows your people, knows the plan, knows what has helped you create it, and so has some objectivity and some ability to say, yes, you've lost your mind, or no, make the move, or here's what I'd be concerned about. And so that's what, you know, the feedback I get from my clients that are six, seven, you obviously met with one yesterday with us that is seven years in. I'm like, hey, there's no more tricks in the bag. Why are you, I know we like working together and stuff like that and we've done great things. Tell me why you're still here. They're like, in those moments that I need somebody that I trust that is, again, aware of my world and can speak into me and knows that I have my best interest at heart, you're the call, right? So that's one piece that we're doing. The other thing we've started last year, and quite frankly, I was surprised. I had resisted this for a long time because I didn't want to be in the events business. But we're doing a CEO event twice a year. And we're bringing in our clients, our active clients can, the CEOs can come in and we put them all in the room. We do a day and a half. We have each, what we've done is sitting in outside speakers. One, you can't sell anything at it. It's part of our program. So there's no cost to you except getting there. And then we, I and my team, helped select several of the CEOs that are coming to teach on a product, or a topic. So for instance, Branded Bills is one of my clients out of Tempe, Arizona. They have grown that brand incredibly. So Dave Dickert, CEO, comes in and talks about the power of a brand for a mid-sized company and how they went from zero to what they've gone to in terms of brand recognition at the top on our golf courses, all the universities, everything else. And so he did that. I had Jared Freeman, CEO of OnPath Federal Credit Union down in New Orleans, talk about a growing and scaling and being aggressive and a regulated market, right? So like these topics, and so what's been cool is we're having our clients present. So it's real stuff. Yeah. And it's not just the highlight reel. I'm like, listen, I need you to also talk about what's broken, what's effed in your company. And they do. So we do that. We have some other, have them, you know, talk through that. And then we do a hot seat on day two. where they have to get up, each CEO has to bring their biggest thing to the table and we put some up at the front of the room and we just rapid fire. That has been received incredibly well. So, on-demand advisory, CEO event, we just launched this past year. We did our first second in command, same type of event, bring those folks in. Again, probably gonna do that twice a year. Obviously, the Ninety integration is huge for us because we We're sold out to it and we know the power of it. So that's another thing we get a lot of feedback about is that we help them use that platform incredibly well. And then we've just finished a new leadership curriculum because I couldn't find one. So we've built it from the ground up based on some core principles we believe in that we're just now launching. And so that'll work because it's going to allow us to continue to develop those second leaders because Two years ago, we started adding in what I call second level facilitation. Yeah. So for some of our clients, we will run the executive team to the quarterly.

Mark Abbott
[0:25:52]
Right.

Cullen Talley
[0:25:52]
And the day or two later, we'll do a half day, um, departmental quarterly. So we're actually facilitating that for the departmental leader. Cause I made the mistake early on thinking each of those leaders had seen me do it enough. They could do it. They can't. And it's hard to do. It's hard. Listen, when I facilitate my own, it's hard to facilitate and participate. So anyway, that's the other thing. So long answer to your question. My point is, is that no, it's not. You could do it that way. We believe there's a better opportunity to really make an impact with clients with more than just the traditional stuff.

Mark Abbott
[0:26:23]
Yeah, how many CEOs, how many companies do you have now?

Cullen Talley
[0:26:27]
We're 75.

Mark Abbott
[0:26:29]
75. And what percentage of the CEOs actually show up?

Cullen Talley
[0:26:32]
50%. We've already got 35 registered for New Orleans in November, and we'd probably pick up a few more.

Mark Abbott
[0:26:37]
And is this your third time?

Cullen Talley
[0:26:39]
Third time.

Mark Abbott
[0:26:39]
All right. 50% plus or minus each time?

Cullen Talley
[0:26:42]
Yep.

Mark Abbott
[0:26:42]
Cause that's, that's pretty damn good participation. Do you find the same 50% or is it?

Cullen Talley
[0:26:48]
Yeah. And obviously you got new clients rolling in, you've got some clients, I mean, there's people that are rolling out and stuff like that. So yeah, but it's been interesting in this core group. Yeah. Um, it actually surprised me. Like I didn't, cause I mean, these CEOs are busy. Yeah. They don't need more stuff on their calendar.

Mark Abbott
[0:27:00]
Right.

Cullen Talley
[0:27:01]
But they've started to create this connection. Yeah. Um, because they had tried some other peer group offerings and were like, Hmm. I need to be in a room that challenges me. I don't want to be the biggest player in the room. And with the work that we do, we push them hard, right? Like, we're not the transit gym that says, hey, like, we are pushing the companies. This is an intensity to the work that we do. And so they want to be around other CEOs, you know, that he or she has that same kind of pace in the business, which is critical. Because a lot of them, even in their industry, they're like, these guys aren't moving like we're moving.

Mark Abbott
[0:27:34]
Is it, I've known you obviously for a long time, and just full disclosure, you're an investor, right? So we're buddies. I've always loved your intensity, and I presume that your clients tend to be folks who are attracted to your intensity, and I presume that when you're in a room or your coaches are in a room, especially if they've done work with you, because I think that's part of your model, right? The clients who are attracted to you are the clients who want to really bloody build something and go fast and go far and hate to say go big, but they care, right? They're driven. And what's interesting is, you know, I've belonged to a number of peer groups. I did the EO thing a long time ago. Um, I do the Vistage thing today. Right. And I've done, did the SaaS founders peer group for, um, since I started during COVID and then it actually got disbanded, kind of. It was Dan Martell's SaaS Academy thing. When Dan decided, you know, I think Dan decided that, you know, SaaS was going away and he wanted to move and do some other things. And so he kind of shut down SaaS Academy and he sold it. And that was all within the last year, probably about a year ago. What was fascinating was when I And I was, you know, sort of a goat. And by the end of it all, and actually, I wasn't paying anymore because I was literally there as someone to coach and help people. And it was a great experience for me. And we went from 15-ish, which was Dan's original sort of promise, boardroom's only going to have 15 people, you know. And then, you know, it got all the way up to like 60 people, right? Because, you know, You charge money, you make more money. More people, more money. There's a saying there. But what's fascinating is that a lot of the people that were in boardroom on the day that it became clear this was the last day, which is a day I'll never forget because they didn't actually say it. You knew what was going on, right? But they weren't sure if they were just going to shut it down and do something different. But on that day, I think that group had 60 and you'd have like, I'd say 50 show up. Now, remember, these are people that are paying, I forget what they're paying per month was, but let's just say it was... Probably 50K a year or something like that, huh? Yeah, something like that. Yeah, right. So they're paying the 50K, so when you're paying, you show up. So I'd say it was like 80% to 90%. Um, show rate and, you know, and, and they did a lot of interesting things. Um, uh, a couple of things like they had, you know, they'd have outside, um, people come in to challenge you. So there was, we did a fire breathing thing one time. I, uh, um, rappelled down a 50-story building. Um, one time we did Navy SEAL training. One time we did, um, exit, like, exit training from a helicopter that crashes, you know, so we did, and, uh, uh, firewalking, a bunch, so they had stuff like that in it. So, you know, um, but there's also, you know, people that would come and speak, and then a lot of us would also speak on topics, right? So, you know, and we all love being together. So they close it down and everybody's like, this is it. And the amount of sadness in the group was palpable. And so what's fascinating is a lot of those people have been reaching out and saying, we got to reform, right? And so we, so literally within the last two weeks, Uh, we went out and said, Hey, we're thinking about, you know, doing something and, you know, we're going to bring in this guy, uh, to facilitate, uh, who's, who's got his own coaching company, but it's focused on technology, a guy who I'm huge friends with and love. But, um, what they wanted to do was just basically have it be virtual. And what was fascinating was everybody's like, no, no. Right. And they, they, they said, look, you know, we're going to do this.

Cullen Talley
[0:32:35]
Yeah.

Mark Abbott
[0:32:36]
It's got to be at least three times a year. And then in between, we can have sessions, virtual, monthly. But then if you're going to do these coaching and you're going to have these small little groups that get coached, they're like, we don't want that. Just the, the desire to get together and be in person. Right. To your point, right. I think with, you know, everything going on in this world right now, the need for a community where you're literally together. is becoming, it's like a real thing.

Cullen Talley
[0:33:17]
Yeah, listen, man, I screamed and kicked on my way to doing this. And we did our first one, learned a lot from that. Felt like there was some things we could do better. We did our second one. And clients loved it. And we asked for very direct feedback on how we could improve it. And so, you know, there's some key things that we did, which was we're not selling anything. There's nothing to buy. We want connection, we want real results in the room, real experts, not like we can't have an outside speaker. But it just lowered that, and then yeah, you're right, connecting with people that are trying to do the thing.

Mark Abbott
[0:33:47]
Like-minded, right?

Cullen Talley
[0:33:48]
Yeah.

Mark Abbott
[0:33:48]
And that's where I go back to, you know, talking about you as a human, right? Just that, bringing that intensity, and then so, you know, and having other founders who are comfortable with, and I presume the What's the percentage of your companies that still founder-led versus CEOs?

Cullen Talley
[0:34:05]
Uh, mostly founder-led. I mean, let's say that we deal with, we've attracted a fair amount of, um, multi-generational family businesses just because it's probably, it's probably half and half in terms of that. That's not a multi-generation. So we've got a CEO that wasn't the founder. And then, yeah, I would say probably it's probably half and half, or maybe a little bit more on the next generation or next owner versus original founder. Yeah.

Mark Abbott
[0:34:32]
So, I mean, it's interesting. A third non-emotionally connected leader and two thirds emotionally connected leaders.

Cullen Talley
[0:34:43]
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I love that you bring out that and obviously I'm proud of my intensity, but one of the things that I've noticed is, yeah, I think it's the initial attraction to us and certainly part of what we've attracted. I think the reason many of our clients have stayed and what I've evolved to in my coaching is, really get into the place about the opportunity to really do good in the world. There's just some amazing stories in terms of impact we've had for entry-level employees, for drivers on a forklift, for guys spraying pest chemicals, stuff like that. The impact we've had and really helping my founders, CEOs, and leadership teams Recognize that. So my intensity is probably the, the sizzle up front, but what I've noticed is the fact that I helped them understand how we can, we can take this high performing financially, you know, successful company and make real impact in humans. And then really celebrate that the last two days with the client I had up here. It was really a celebration of a goal we set. It was six people in the room. That was the entire company seven years ago. 15x the company in the last seven years. It was just like, guys, let's just breathe that in for a minute. So it's interesting, as I've evolved, part of it's my age, but the intensity is kind of that front end. And my clients do, especially early on, they like that because they're trying to figure out how to find that. As they've grown, they feel like they've lost, maybe they've diluted because they're spread too thin.

Mark Abbott
[0:35:59]
Well, I think, you know, I, I share your, I I'll call it belief, right? That look, the only way you're going to build a great company is by building a great company that has great people. Right. And so, you know, getting back to your point on leadership, right. It's look guys, you know, and it's, and, and, and, cause I want to drill more on what you're doing on the leadership side. Right. But it's, it's look guys, you know, As goes the leadership team, so goes the rest of the organization, right? And so, and if you can't get your leadership to align and you can't get your leadership team, right, recognizing that for them to be successful, the people that work for them need to be successful and for the company to be successful, you really want everybody to want the company to be successful. And if you got a bunch of people below the leadership team that, you know, are sort of throwing bombs and, you know, not liking one another, and it's just an unhealthy environment, right? That's just, that's just, it's not going to work, actually. It's enlightened self-interest, right? Which is why, you know, almost, I would say within two years of me getting into the coaching game, I started pushing all of my clients to certify Great Place to Work. So all of my clients, right, always certified, great place to work, right? And, and, and, you know, six, seven, eight years, right? Certified in a row. Um, and then, you know, we do it ourselves. Um, and, you know, barely made it by the skin of our teeth last year because, you know, we had to let people go. And that kind of sucked. And, you know, and it shows up in the results. But, you know, but the focus on just being on the humans.

Cullen Talley
[0:37:50]
Yeah.

Mark Abbott
[0:37:51]
Right.

Cullen Talley
[0:37:51]
Yeah.

Mark Abbott
[0:37:52]
It's like, you know, you can be all aggressive and everything else, but if you don't get that, You're not going to win.

Cullen Talley
[0:38:00]
Yeah. Yeah. And if they don't feel part of the winning, that's the thing that's so interesting with some of these small to mid-sized companies, because they get nervous about sharing the vision, the plan, the strategy, especially the financials. And I'm like, guys, I hear you. All I can tell you is we have all this information from all these companies you work with. People want to be part of a winning team. They also want to feel secure. How do we help them see that? One, that you have a plan. Two, that we are winning, because they want to do it. And I always use the analogy of people with sports. People are passionate about sports. Like, crazy. We won the Super Bowl. You weren't on the team. You don't own the team, but you still feel like you won.

Mark Abbott
[0:38:32]
Right?

Cullen Talley
[0:38:32]
Whatever. It doesn't have to be sports. Music that you're passionate about. You feel a part of it. Why wouldn't somebody who's working in the organization have that same connection to the company?

Mark Abbott
[0:38:41]
What percentage of your companies They all, I presume they all share revenue.

Cullen Talley
[0:38:49]
Uh, yes. All share revenue. Yeah.

Mark Abbott
[0:38:52]
Do I presume that they share either gross margins or operating margins?

Cullen Talley
[0:38:56]
Yeah. So I would say probably, I would say 95, there may be 1%, but I would say 100% share revenue. Yeah. I would say, um, close to 90% are going to share gross margin and 80, 85% are going to share net margin or EBITDA. So we push it hard. Because I'm like, listen, gang, first off, if your teams don't have basic financial literacy, they can't help you do it. So if you don't know what COGS are and overhead is, they can't help you manage it, right? And you're going to get great ideas from frontline folks when you start to help them understand what we're trying to do. Secondarily, in a world that's got a lot of chaos, when you show people profit is we are winning and we can reinvest in you. Profit is the fuel for growth. So when we make money, what that lets us do is hire more, buy better systems, put you in a nicer office, buy the machine. We get to do those things and prepare for inevitability. So if you're concerned about security and you may live paycheck to paycheck, it's nice to know there's a leadership group that's saying we have a plan and then they start seeing you hit that plan quarter over quarter and be honest when you don't. they start to understand, OK, I'm safe here, right? If we go back to Maslow's Hierarchy, what's basic human need? And if I'm in an entry-level role, that's always the thing. Like, I don't want to share a profit. They're going to ask me for a raise. I'm like, well, that's a cultural issue. I want people to make a fair wage. And as long as you're in pay bands and range and you've done some research about what's up, then you should be able to do that. And if they add value and increase the value of the company, then we should share that with them after they've done that. But anyway, that's the fear initially for a lot of folks. But we're pretty. It's not required, but it is strongly, strongly suggested. Let me just say it that way.

Mark Abbott
[0:40:35]
Have you found yourself helping the companies think about how to share in the riches, if you will, and share in the profit improvements and things like that?

Cullen Talley
[0:40:45]
Yes.

Mark Abbott
[0:40:45]
What percentage of your companies buy into that?

Cullen Talley
[0:40:49]
You know, so the plans are really formal and probably a smaller percentage, but helping understand when we outperform that there's an opportunity. I wouldn't say it's direct profit sharing, but certainly when we are winning, having people understand there's bonus opportunities or whatever else. They don't all have a true profit sharing program. But I mean, listen, obviously labor's getting more and more expensive. So it's happening by default, especially some of the markets we serve. But yeah, it's innately there. There's a couple with a real clear program. But again, with some of the size companies, it takes a minute for them to get to that point in terms of a true profit sharing program.

Mark Abbott
[0:41:30]
You talked about three things that you, you're focused on doing that you think's a little bit sort of next generation in terms of, of, of, of, of supporting companies as, as a, as, as a coach. Um, the leadership side, are you, is there, and I know you, you've just said you've created a curriculum, right? Is it, is that become. sort of non five days kind of work. Is that how you guys are handling it?

Cullen Talley
[0:42:01]
I built it so we could plug it in with, cause my first, first, because we started doing the second level facility, second and third level facilitation, I was seeing some things and kind of the VP, senior director, director, I was like, we've got to get some, some, some soft skills in here. We've got to start having some of these, we say we've got to hold them more accountable. Like how, right? Like how do we, how do we do that? Just like we know how to run a weekly meeting. We run, we know how to register. How do I hold people more accountable? We need some how in that. So, um, I saw it there, but then I backed up. So I was building in that for that originally. And then I had this awareness, like, wait a minute. Some of my leadership teams, even with very successful companies need some of this as well. So we've built it to where we can plug it into. part of our quarterly. So instead of a new tool, we basically take that hour, hour and a half and plug in that. And we've got a couple of different ways we can sequence it. So as long as six months, where most of the teaching is happening in those three quarterly, so Q1, Q2, Q3, we get it all delivered because there's tools associated with everything else. And we see it as a standalone for that next level. We also see it, quite frankly, as an opportunity for clients who don't use us for strategic planning, who may have another coach, for us to get involved, get engaged, and show how we're different and what we do. So I don't necessarily know we're going to do a ton of that front end, but I do think it's an opportunity. Yeah.

Mark Abbott
[0:43:17]
And, and you're, you're actually putting it, we haven't talked about this. Are you going to be putting it in, you know, your, the, the tool section within the Ninety instance?

Cullen Talley
[0:43:26]
Yeah. Yeah. So we use the knowledge tab. We'll build that out because the cool thing now with the collections is we can turn it on and off and we can make it available to different teams. So with the advancements you've made with the knowledge tab and now before we wouldn't have been able to do it, but now like in the master days and stuff like that. Yeah. So with the way that knowledge tab has been architected, we're going to be able to leverage, which we're super excited about, because it allows us to deploy. In fact, we just started now using the knowledge tab for even our session prep. So we have different things we're doing, like with the annual we just did, we're directing them back there. So the knowledge tab has been a place, really a repository for us for those kinds of things. So we'll go there. Cool.

Mark Abbott
[0:43:59]
So all that makes sense. Let's move over to strategy.

Cullen Talley
[0:44:02]
Yep.

Mark Abbott
[0:44:05]
I have an, I think an unusual perspective around with strategies. Imagine that. Right. Imagine that. Right. So I believe that there are five unavoidable stages of development going from basically the idea of a business to a exceptional company that you can confidently and competently hand off to the next generation of leaders and or, um, or owners. Right. And I believe that strategy at its core is about winning each stage. Right. Because you got to win the stage to move to the next stage.

Cullen Talley
[0:44:40]
Sure.

Mark Abbott
[0:44:41]
Right. And I believe that most of the coaching communities are focused on companies that are at stage three, which is where you're now systemizing, right? You know, someone always shows, you tell me if I'm wrong here, but I believe 90 plus percent of the time, right? They're open to coaching because they're suffering from pain. And I believe the pain they're typically suffering from is people pain.

Cullen Talley
[0:45:10]
Yeah, 100 percent.

Mark Abbott
[0:45:11]
Right.

Cullen Talley
[0:45:11]
Yeah.

Mark Abbott
[0:45:11]
And what happens is you get to the place where, OK, now I need marketing and I need sales and I've got ops. And maybe obviously, depending upon the industry, there's even a lot more departments than that. Right. Finance, obviously. client success, right? We've got like, you know, 12 departments in our company, right? Um, and you hire these people, especially founders, right? You hire people who look like they've been there and done that. And then they come in with their own damn playbooks and their own damn perspective of performance, their own opinion on culture, their own this, this, this. And next thing you know, you turn around and you're like, I can't stand my company.

Cullen Talley
[0:45:50]
Yeah.

Mark Abbott
[0:45:51]
Right. So this, this is crazy. I can't believe I built a company that I've ended up hating.

Cullen Talley
[0:45:56]
Yeah.

Mark Abbott
[0:45:56]
Right. And I've talked to a lot of founders and this is a, like a hundred percent occurrence. Right. So you get to this place where like, what the WTF, I can't believe I've done this. I got to figure out how to get everybody on the same page. all believing in where we're going, all aligned around all these things that are really critical, like performance management, KPIs, weekly meetings, you know, whatever feedback system we believe in quarterly conversations they want to have. Right. And, and, and like, and then where they're working well together, there's not silos, there's not, you know, a bunch of, you know,

Cullen Talley
[0:46:36]
infighting and yeah. Yeah.

Mark Abbott
[0:46:38]
Crap.

Cullen Talley
[0:46:38]
Yeah.

Mark Abbott
[0:46:39]
Right. And so that, so that's stage three. Right. And, and, and so winning that stage is basically getting everybody on the same page.

Cullen Talley
[0:46:48]
Yes.

Mark Abbott
[0:46:49]
Right.

Cullen Talley
[0:46:49]
Yes.

Mark Abbott
[0:46:50]
And, and, and, you know, and sometimes it's not just about the leadership team. It's, it could be the founder, the co-founders, you know, the COO and the CEO.

Cullen Talley
[0:47:00]
Yeah, well, especially when you have multiple owners. And we've got a lot of companies that have multiple owners. And there's times where their relationship is good. I've had several. I'm like, I get that you're good friends. You guys get to hang out. You love each other. That's awesome. She and you and you are not on the same page about where we're trying to go, even though your relationship.

Mark Abbott
[0:47:15]
Well, how fast?

Cullen Talley
[0:47:16]
Fair enough.

Mark Abbott
[0:47:17]
Exactly. Right. That's a huge one, right? Well, I just want to get to 20, or I just want to grow 3% or 5%, right? Well, I want to grow 50%. I mean, that's a big disconnect. I want to go like aggressively pursue this. Well, I think we're fine right here. Right.

Cullen Talley
[0:47:33]
Cause it impacts my distributions.

Mark Abbott
[0:47:35]
Right.

Cullen Talley
[0:47:36]
Yeah.

Mark Abbott
[0:47:37]
Right. So, so that's why, you know, to me, right. And I go through all five stages. Right. But to me it's about, okay, what do we need to do to win this stage? Right. That's what strategy is all about. And, and I, and I'm curious, you know, and you can knock me back and say you're wrong, but to me, that's what strategy is all about. When you're teaching strategy, are you more along the lines of like blue ocean and things like that? Or what, when you say strategy, what do you mean?

Cullen Talley
[0:48:05]
Yeah. So I think initially, and obviously this is continue to evolve. And I think this is the, once we get this, once the leadership curriculum's done, that's the next thing for me. Cause I think we've done a great job on financial rigor. I'm now really proud of the work we've done on leadership. And so I think we were doing some things well on strategy, but just like leadership now, I'm feeling called to the next version of that. So I wouldn't say there's a particular body of work we necessarily use on that. But to your point, I agree. They're trying to get everybody on the same page in terms of that. which then leads to, once we're on the same page, do we do it the same way? So system process, right? Do we collectively do it the same way? So it's like, okay, we agree we want to go do this thing. Now, I can't have one estimator estimating projects this way and another estimating another way, right? So it's like, we agree here, then the next thing for us is that. Then to me, it's a differentiation cycle. So it's like, what I think a lot of the mid-size companies don't think about is, once they've had that level of success, they're now built to serve a certain type of client. And what got them up was they basically would say yes to anything. Cause again, don't die. That's, that's, that's the monster. Don't die.

Mark Abbott
[0:49:05]
So genuinely being honest about an ideal customer profile. Correct.

Cullen Talley
[0:49:08]
Absolutely.

Mark Abbott
[0:49:09]
And genuinely be honest about the compelling value proposition three. And what do you call them?

Cullen Talley
[0:49:13]
Uh, we call it, I mean, so it's, it's really ideal client and then brand promises and really, and we really stand for the brand promise and then differentiated activities.

Mark Abbott
[0:49:20]
Right.

Cullen Talley
[0:49:20]
So how are we different? Not better, but how are we different?

Mark Abbott
[0:49:22]
Right.

Cullen Talley
[0:49:22]
There's obviously a lot of great examples around that. But so for me, the ideal client piece is one that we do in the beginning, but it really doesn't come to life until we get a little further along because it requires you to say no. And many founders and key leaders are not good at saying no. And what I have to help them understand is you have built a machine that is built to serve a certain client. And you may have been serving this other client for the last 20 years, 50 years, whatever. We're going to have to say no. And a lot of times, part of the people changes we have made in the process have helped. Because you remember how we had to make this change and this people function, and that was an amazing person for a long time, and then the company outgrew them? The same thing is happening for you with your clients, your customers. There are certain customers and clients that you can be grateful for for the season that they were appropriate for your business. They are no longer appropriate. And as long as you keep saying yes to them, and you don't pay attention to the fact that your overhead doesn't make sense to start up a project of this size, We have a problem. So there's the ideal client discipline around that, getting clear about that. And, and I tell you the thing we've added there that's been helpful is not just who they are, but who they aren't. Yeah. So it's not just, Oh, this is who we want. No, it's like, who are they not? And I tell you that who are you, who are they not question has been powerful and it's forced people to really think. So then it's the brand problem. What do we stand for? Like, what are we going to promise to the market and deliver and how do we measure that?

Mark Abbott
[0:50:41]
Right.

Cullen Talley
[0:50:41]
Cause you can say we're unique this way and it's just, it's just I mean, honestly, it's crap. And so it's like when we've synthesized it down, and I was looking at some Harvard Business Review stuff on this, it's really helped us get clear about that in terms of what is the promise we're going to make to the market more than how we're unique, and how do we measure it? So if I'm going to make this promise, what are the things on my scorecard that show me we're actually hitting that?

Mark Abbott
[0:51:03]
Yeah, it's funny. Who gives a damn if you're unique?

Cullen Talley
[0:51:10]
Yeah.

Mark Abbott
[0:51:11]
Right. That's not what they're buying. Right. They're not buying you being unique. Right. Right. They're buying something.

Cullen Talley
[0:51:16]
Yeah.

Mark Abbott
[0:51:17]
And now the question is, do most of your customers say, this is why we're buying from you? Right. Right. Plus or minus.

Cullen Talley
[0:51:24]
Yeah.