Building Ninety: 10 Years Through the Eyes of Our First FTE

Mark Abbott

[0:00:05]

Good morning, Christine.

Christine Watts

[0:00:07]

Morning.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:09]

Well, this is fun. I guess we're going to do a number of 10-year anniversary podcasts with a few of the folks who've helped us from almost the very beginning. that moment to where we are today and you as employee, full-time employee number one, are the perfect place to start.

Christine Watts

[0:00:36]

Yeah, I'm excited about it.

Mark Abbott

[0:00:38]

It's been a journey. It has been a hell of a journey. So, so speaking of, so everybody has a sense for how long you've been on this journey and how it started. Um, we can start with one of two places. You get to decide. We can either start from the very beginning. Right. Um, and sort of, uh, you know, the, the moment you were introduced to 90 and sort of the thinking, or. And this may be more helpful because it'll give some perspective to folks. If you could do a brief overview of the various roles you've had over the almost 10 years now, because that's, right, that in itself I think will set a really interesting overview of all the things that go into what you'll share later on.

Christine Watts

[0:01:44]

Yeah. Yeah. So I, I came in and my background was in marketing, so I came in as marketing and client success thinking I'd get rid of the client success side once we scaled a bit more, um, but was focused in those primary areas. Yes, for a while, but as we ended up growing, I dropped the marketing side and came fully on to client success. So I grew the client success department and the product department as head of product. And then I moved into chief of staff. And then after chief of staff, I became head of professional services once we decided we wanted to start that department.

Mark Abbott

[0:02:24]

So

Christine Watts

[0:02:25]

Lots of variety there. And it's crazy because I feel like the role titles and departments don't even like feel like they fully encompass it because like my pad, my when Randy, our first head of engineering got here, he was like, I feel like you're kind of head of engineering. I shouldn't be, but it feels like that sometimes because you're just being scrappy and trying to like get things done and communicate with everyone on what the objectives are. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:02:54]

I mean, yeah. So when I think about it, I think of, you know, it's funny because while you did come on to help us with marketing, you know, the first, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but the first, I want to say two, three, four years, all we did was like spend 500 bucks a month on, on Facebook.

Christine Watts

[0:03:18]

Literally, yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:03:19]

And we really didn't do anything quote unquote, like marketing. We didn't, there was just, there was almost zero marketing. Right.

Christine Watts

[0:03:26]

Yeah, I mean, we really didn't have to do much. I think, one, we were trying to prove we deserve to exist within the base and the niche that we had, but we had such a product market fit with that base where once we were able to convince people that they should use software instead of spreadsheets or writing things up on a whiteboard, There wasn't much need to like market or sell because there, we were just using the implementer community like so heavily, I would say. And we were so ingrained in that because of you and Chris White and all of like our kind of like early really advocates, I would say that were implementers and like trying to push the envelope in terms of like what people are doing with EOS. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:04:14]

And, and so really early on, I mean, in the beginning we had, you know, what I affectionately refer to as our two, you know, college, in college engineers who I didn't even know were in college at the time. Good old Eban and Sven. And then, and then you kind of helped me help them figure out what to focus on from a product perspective. And then because you were getting lots of feedback from our, our, our customers, um, you know, you and I would sit, you know, it feels like it was probably kind of quarterly, right? But we just dove over the list of everything that our customers were telling us we had to do. And we were just sort of, you know, you and I were, I won't even say negotiating. I think 95% of the time you're like, we just need to do this. And I'm like, okay, let's just do it.

Christine Watts

[0:05:09]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:05:09]

And that was the first, how many years do you think that that's kind of how we built the company?

Christine Watts

[0:05:16]

Yeah. I mean, it was definitely years. Cause I would say it even went into like 2020 and beyond where we were really doing that because we were just like responding to the needs of the market. And what was so hard about the early days is because people don't understand it today, but there was really an aversion to using software. In level 10 meetings, in quarterly sessions, in all of these places where now people just like put out their phone, record everything, things happen automatically, right? Like, like there wasn't aversion to using technology. And so we really had to overcome that. And so early days of product, we saw a need and our customers were asking for something, but we would still need to go and get things approved. I'll never forget it, but like putting the notes field on the scorecard. Yeah. People were asking about it. I can do this if I use Excel. Yes, you can, but we had to have a meeting with EOS and EOS said no because if you're putting a number in, you own it and you should remember why it's that number. I wish I had a worse memory so that I could forget some of these things that happened. But it's like, that was the level of detail that we had on every single feature. And I, there were some things where I could talk to three people during the day, I could turn my head and tell E-man to update it. And then we had something that was working better or a bug fixed. And like, we had a really quick feedback loop, but then other things that felt like they should be so simple, couldn't be because of. the nature of like how the industry was and how like we had to move through and do some of that product development work.

Mark Abbott

[0:07:02]

Oh, you're being so polite right now.

Christine Watts

[0:07:04]

I am.

Mark Abbott

[0:07:07]

So, so, but this is our story, right? It is what it is. Um, and I think we can represent it factually as opposed to embellishing or having a bunch of negative emotions with it because I don't have any negative emotions with the, with it. Um, personally, in terms of the, uh, in terms of, you know, sort of phase one or chapter one of the company and And what I think people probably should appreciate is, as you were alluding to, right? I mean, EOS basically approved everything we did, either marketing-wise or product-wise. And so every single change that, you know, uh, was, you know, I mean, literally, I mean, every, everything, right? It was, it was, it was crazy. And so, um, you know, everything that our clients would ask us to do, we'd have to go back to EOS. Um, on numerous occasions, uh, it was a no. I mean, no seemed like the easy answer to almost everything. And so then you'd have to, you know, escalate. And then you'd have to negotiate. And, and there were some tense moments where, uh, you know, as an example, Chris got pretty upset, uh, with, uh, with, with EOS and I'm like, look, you know, we, we just got to figure this out. And so I tried really hard, um, one time over the years, I got. kind of, I mean, you were there, right? And I just said, that's not fair. That's not fair. Right? I got, I got kind of emotional about what they, what they, you know, said. Um, and you know, to be fair, as you pointed out, they, they had a very strong point of view that there should be no technology in the session room. They had a very strong point of view. that every single thing that we did was going to have an impact on their brand, and I respect that, right? Um, and everything that we did was going to, in some regard, um, either affirm or contradict sort of, you know, what EOS Pure is. And, um, and so, you know, this was sort of the wild, wild west in terms of trying to figure out how to, uh, bring technology into the world of business building as seen by the world of EOS. And, um, and, and it wasn't just, you know, wasn't just sort of, you know, EOS worldwide like this, it was a bunch of personalities and then you had the implementers and their personalities. And so it was this, it was, it was, it was a beautiful mess. in a lot of ways, and I think we sat in that beautiful mess, as you said, certainly in 2017, certainly in 2018, certainly in 2019, even in 2020 when we entered into COVID because all of a sudden now, you know, the world, the universe, right, some virus pushed us all into having no choice but to leverage technology to make sure that we were all on the same page, heading in the same direction at the same pace, et cetera. And so I think, and I'd be curious from your perspective, I think that's when It was like, it's impossible not to try to figure out how to surf the marriage of the operating system and how technology can support it.

Christine Watts

[0:11:03]

Yeah, I think you're so right. That was like a really critical turning point and to do like a very abbreviated version of that history. I know you guys were building beta version of the product in 2016 and I think I was like interviewing and deciding around like October, November of 2016 and then joined January 1 of 17. And we had a beta product, we took it for paying clients that spring of 2017. And it was like primarily like your clients, Chris White's clients, like a few, like I want to say like 50 or so early adopters of the platform. And it was under Traction, spelled with an X. And so it wasn't an EOS licensed product initially. It was just the tools. It said meetings instead of level 10 meetings. Um, and we were trying to figure out like what we wanted to do license agreement wise. It was kind of like a net new world. So there wasn't anything standard. But by the time we hit fall of 2018, obviously we'd gotten a ton of feedback. Obviously more implementers were saying they'd use us if we were licensed. So we did do that. And at that time is when we changed our name to 90. And so then as 90, like, we're going through 18 and 19 with all of these, like, product struggles, even on the marketing side, like, yeah, we weren't spending money, but even, even releasing, like, a blog, we had to go through and get that approved and, like, sit in a meeting with them and, like, read through it together and they would change a word here or there. So, like, this is all of the minutia through, like, 2018, 2019, and then finally when 2020 hit, Our clients were reaching out to us and saying, if we didn't have this, we would be scrambling right now. Like, because everything is digital, we can actually still work and we're moving faster than our competitors. And we're getting all of this really good proactive feedback. And then meanwhile, and we were so nervous we were going to lose companies because people were going to be trying to cut costs. But people were like, this is the one thing I have to have. And then on the flip side, we were getting such an inbound in because now everyone is trying to like go have remote meetings and go do all of these things differently than what they'd done before. And so we're getting that influx of new customers too. And we were able to do so many things in the product we've been fighting for. We didn't have quarterly meetings or annual planning or focus day, all of those kinds of things. And we got approval from EOS to do it because COVID hit. And this is like probably right away, you know, in like April or something like that. And we're like, hurry up. We have to do it right now. And I think McGregor literally didn't sleep for like a weekend or a week and just got the whole thing done because we were so worried that they were going to turn their head and say, yeah, never mind. And so we got it done and we got it released. I mean, probably within seven days because We were, we were just so frantic, like we have this ability to actually release product that people have been asking us for because like now the outside, other people are finally seeing the value of having something digital and having something that can be accessed from anywhere. So I think you're right. Like 2020 was really that kind of tipping point for us where like the community actually saw it. Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:14:34]

And it was, uh, I mean, it seems so long ago now, right? I know.

Christine Watts

[0:14:39]

It feels like a lifetime.

Mark Abbott

[0:14:41]

But, you know, I can't remember whether it was you or Cole or Spencer, right? But, uh, we had a small team doing client success and supporting all that. And, uh, and we started like the city of New Orleans was running on 90, right? Which is like, what, and the, and the Bahama ministry of tourism. And I remember all these like crazy, you're like, you gotta be kidding me kind of things that were going on then. And it was wild. And, and as you remember, we, anybody who said, um, they were struggling, because I had clients that, you know, one of my clients, you probably remember this one, but they were a food provider to like a significant number of school districts in Ohio. And I think they were not just Cleveland, but they were like Cleveland, Akron, Cincinnati. I mean, they were like one of the biggest food service providers. And guess what, right? School's gone, right? In-school learning is gone. And so they basically went from, I mean, they were well into the 100 million plus range and basically went to zero in terms of revenue. We're like anybody who calls up, you know, they didn't call us, they hit us through intercom, but anybody who reached out to us and said they're struggling right now, we're like, we get it. It's, you know, it's, it's, you don't have to pay for it.

Christine Watts

[0:16:20]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:16:21]

You know, I, I can't remember you. I'm sure you can. We said like, I don't know if it's 60 days, 90 days.

Christine Watts

[0:16:27]

We did three months. And we said, if you reach out and you want to cancel and it's because of costs, like We're just going to give it to you free for three months. And at that time, you don't know, you're taking it weekly at a time. And so we're like, in three months, we kept them all on a spreadsheet and we're like, we'll reach back out. And if you need more time, like you're going to get more time. Yeah. And it was, it was tens at most of companies that reached out for that. Cause again, like I said, everyone was so like, this is the thing, this is the one thing I feel like I actually like need. This is providing the most value back to me.

Mark Abbott

[0:16:59]

So. Yeah, it was crazy, right?

Christine Watts

[0:17:02]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:17:02]

And I mean, to this day, I don't know about you, but COVID's a blur in my head.

Christine Watts

[0:17:09]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:17:10]

Just a blur, right? And the business side of it, the personal side, actually, I kind of remember it more just because, you know, I've got, you know, one son and, you know, and so me and Cole and Beth, we're all, you know, together and so it was a wonderful time for us as a family to be together and we were in the Keys so it was easy to get out and run around on the water and do stuff. So, from a personal perspective, I look back at it and it was quality time for us as a family. But then I think about some of the webinars that we did during that period of time with our customers and talking about, you know, how we're trying to support them as, as you're in this sort of this, this COVID moment. Um, and so I, I can sit there and remember us, you know, you know, having those, those, yeah, I hate to say webinars cause it doesn't probably do the justice, right. But just those, those town of town hall events, we're all trying to figure out how to help one another. And, um, And just, uh, you know, to the point you were making, um, there was a, there was, I, maybe I'm wrong on this, but I feel like we were so connected to our customer base through all that. I mean, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a really warm and cool way. We were just like helping support one another and, and, um, and people were super appreciative and, you know, they were letting, you know, other people know if they were struggling with this stuff, you should come on over and take a look. So I think we were growing at almost 200% during that period. Um, and it was predominantly just, people who appreciated that we were helping them navigate, you know, working from home.

Christine Watts

[0:19:07]

Yeah. And I, I honestly like look back and think one of the more proud things that I built here is that people still come to us and are like, you have the best people, you have the best support. I can always get ahold of somebody. And I think like that, that feeling that was kind of like cultivated at that time and before. And like Michelle was like a huge part of this too, of just like, we're always here and we're always going to be helpful. And if we don't have the answer, we're going to find the answer. I think every person that we've pulled in that's customer-facing, we've really instilled that in and I feel really good that that's still a very positive reputation that we have to this day that we're real people and we're genuinely here to help you and connect you to other people and all of those things.

Mark Abbott

[0:19:57]

Yeah, it's, you know, it's, we, you and I have never had this conversation, right? But, so we're going to have it right now. It'll be interesting. I think you and I both, without ever really having a conversation around it, deeply believed that the customer experience was the most important thing because we knew that You know, building a company, running a company is hard. It just is, right?

Christine Watts

[0:20:26]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:20:27]

And I knew it from my perspective, having invested in over a hundred and sat on 30 plus boards and built several companies. And so I had my own reasons for why I sort of you know, believed what I believed and, and, and believed, and I, and I taught, you know, well before I was a part of the U.S. world and taught what a U.S. teaches, um, I always thought that, you know, every business, you have to kind of decide on what your unique value proposition is. And some people lean towards, you know, like the lowest total cost, which, you know, could be, you know, Walmart or even Amazon is there, but part of when they think about cost, they think about just the cost to go get something, right? And so Walmart and Amazon are lowest total cost kind of value proposition. And then Apple innovation, right? Pretty straightforward stuff. Nordstrom was always about customer service. And then, you know, and that's kind of a Michael Tracy model. And then I added one more to it many, many years ago, which was some people, it's all about sort of status and exclusivity, right? So Chanel and Gucci and Rolex and, Patik or Patak or however you pronounce the watch. And we just always, I think, just believed in leading with customer service. And you and I never like, we need, it's almost like, like I said, we, I don't think we've ever had a literal conversation around this. We just both deeply believed in that. And you led as the head of customer success, you led with that, but we've never actually really had a deep conversation around this.

Christine Watts

[0:22:17]

Yeah, and I think it's because it was not needed because we were both already aligned to it. So I can remember a world where we were talking about, you know, those value points and like, which one are we going to prioritize most and all of those things. but we didn't have to get into it because it's, we know like customer experience is number one. And I think even now as like more is getting automated, more can happen for the client without a human needing to be involved. Like we have an entire person dedicated to make sure that that like automated response and bot is performing and optimized and a good experience for them. And every day we have a real person that's sitting there too and able to take and field those incoming things coming in too. And so I think our team has always had like a really high level of care and even Taylor Pauletta who like leads our support team now I attribute to like a ton of she's meshing a lot of the automated and AI world and like way that we can scale and provide a really good experience with being human and having the empathy and having the real people there alongside to like help and give it the touch when you need to. So I feel like that that has definitely set us apart and I think continues to and just the level of care that we provide people.

Mark Abbott

[0:23:38]

Yeah well and it's not gonna you know I don't know, as long as I'm around and I appoint people who my successors, you know, sort of believe in continuing to carry the torch, that's, we lead with customer experience and in particular, right, with doing everything we can to take care of them. It doesn't mean we're perfect by any stretch of the imagination, right? But because there's lots of areas that I think we do much better in. But, but, you know, in, in like customer experience, even getting down into sort of the, you know, the user experience in the software as opposed to the customer support experience. Right. So, um, but that's just, that's who we are. And, and, and like I said, it's, it's, it's, I think it's who we have to be forever. Um, so I appreciate the fact that you did such a great job of setting us up to honor that commitment. And as you said, Taylor's doing a great job to continue to honor it. And we're leveraging, you know, technology to continue to honor it. And so it's, doesn't, doesn't mean it's just always about the human in terms of a human being there for customer support. It's about making sure that we're doing everything we can to take care of them. And I forget, why didn't we start, I think, remember we started talking about Um, my desire, um, to get to 24 seven as fast as we could. And we got to seven days a week, Sunday being not 24 seven, but that was coming online. There's running their meetings. It's Monday morning for them.

Christine Watts

[0:25:26]

So yeah, it's like we, we wanted to be there. Um, and so it's a real thing. Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:25:32]

When do you think we, when did we, when did we hit that? Do you remember?

Christine Watts

[0:25:36]

It was pretty early. Yeah. It was, I don't know. I mean, definitely years ago at this point, maybe 2020, maybe 21, but yeah, it's. It's also interesting to look back and think about those moments of connection that people really remember. Even this year at the EOS conference, I still have people that come up to me and tell me about how they remember you know, we kind of stopped at 2020 with our history, but obviously, like, we were getting a lot of momentum. EOS Worldwide finally saw, like, hey, like, this is a real thing. Like, software is great. And so in 21, they decided, like, hey, we should take a stab at doing software. And we had that conversation with them. I'll never forget. This was, like, one of the huge product pivots we had to make is when they said, you need a plan B. They told us that. And so you need a plan B. We're going to make our own software and we don't know what's going to happen with the license. And so we spent that, I think, summer of 21, like, kind of scrambling and saying, all right, well, we've got a, we have this agreement now. We don't know if it's going to be here. We need to pivot the business. And so we're starting to think about like, okay, we can still service EOS customers, but is there like a configurable template option? And so we're going through all of this ideation and like through all of that, like this conversation we're having, we're trying to be really transparent with our client base, tell them we're here to support them. And I still have people to this day come up to me and tell me about like that, those series of events that we ran where we were going through. Here's where we are right now. Here's some of the changes we're going to make. Here's how we're still going to support you through having a configurable template. What does this really mean for your business? Um, people remember that. And I think it's a Testament to like, we, we handled a really uncertain situation. And I look back on that with pride and like how we. communicated and like worked with people. And, um, like obviously it kind of all things came full circle and they tried to launch their product. They didn't let go of our license agreement because software is difficult. Um, so they realized they still wanted to work with us and now we've got our, um, extended, uh, agreement now. And so it's, it's nice that we kind of like stuck in there. And I think to your point of you were always really good about, um, being like being a good person through that, like being like, I'm not going to take it out on you. I'm, I'm like, we're going to continue to work together. I don't know the best way to put that, but just like agreeable in those moments where it could have been easy to, uh, burn a bridge. And so we're still still able to have like this great relationship and license agreement and all those things. So it's nice to see it all kind of come. full circle after all of those different like bumps and adjustments and things we had to do. Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:28:35]

You know, I know I've said this before on, you know, some older episode or something, but I, you know, remember when we were going through that, you know, it started with, we're either going to buy you or take away your license.

Christine Watts

[0:28:50]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:28:51]

And then, you know, they went and spent a couple of years and we knew what they were doing and then they, then they you know, one morning you wake up and there's an email and says, you know, this is your 90 day notice. And, and then, you know, a lot of We had to be, you know, let everybody know what was going on in the community of implementers, and obviously the U.S. was letting them know, and obviously with our customer base, and so, you know, when we were prepared, because as you said, somewhere between that first conversation, which is we were either going to buy you or take away your license, and getting the notice, we did have that famous, you guys have to have a plan B conversation. Um, and, uh, we're like, yeah, we know we're working on it. And you said we were working on being configurable and all that good stuff. Um, But, you know, I bring it up because there are new members, you know, to the EOS implementer world who don't know that story. Right. And, and, and they're like, well, you guys, you know, you're, you're not a hundred percent EOS. And we're like, yeah, that was because there was this history here.

Christine Watts

[0:30:06]

They told us not to. Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:30:08]

They said, you got to do plan B. And then we did plan B and. And then, uh, we have, you know, I think, uh, what, maybe close to 4,000 companies who run on a non-EOS version of the, of the software platform. And so it's like, you know, obviously we, you know, we, once again, we're, we're trying to do our best to, you know, have high trust relationships with all of our ideal stakeholders and, um, So we have 4,000 people that aren't, aren't running on, uh, 4,000 companies that aren't running on EOS. And so, you know, uh, to sit here and, and, you know, and say that, you know, you guys, for some implementers to, to not understand that story, you know, you know, you wish everybody did. I understand why they don't. There's 860, you know, or so implementers and a bunch of them have joined since, uh, since we went through that experience together. And, you know, and I, and, and as you said, you know, my, my perspective is, And I'm far from perfect, you know that as well as anybody in the world. My perspective is let's figure out where exactly we're supposed to be, learning the lessons we need to learn, let's figure out how not to burn bridges, let's figure out how to be the best we can possibly be, be better and better versions of the best versions of ourselves. And, you know, life is long and, and, uh, and, you know, and we're going to figure this out and, you know, it will be what it'll be and all those cliches. But I do remember, and I know I've said that, shared this with you and a bunch of people, I remember getting literally yelled at. for how we were approaching this because people are like, you should just take your ball and go home.

Christine Watts

[0:31:49]

This is so... Yeah, they were like, they're treating you so badly. You shouldn't do this. Like it was, um, I mean, it's like a real damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of situation. But I think we were able to kind of like see this other side in a way that said like, no, we'll keep, you know, doing the work and trying our best and keep our heads down and like, able to see like this kind of world we're in now where like we can have an agreement, we can work together, we can have this be like a huge part of our business without neglecting the other side that we've also created too. Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:32:24]

It's, it's, uh, you know, less is more until it's not. And so you always love to have everything be as simple as possible. But, you know, life is not always as simple as we want it to be. So speaking of simple, I'd love to hear your perspective. Once again, this is a thing that you and I haven't really ever chatted much about. But besides the back and forth and back and forth, uh, with, with EOS, um, cause it did, it's not only like the first version of its software crashed and burned, the second version of its software wasn't particularly, um, uh, great either. And so they ended up selling it and now they're completely out of, out of that business. Besides sort of that part of our story, um, you know, what's your sense for how the product and the company and our customers, you know, have things changed a lot over the 10 years? Or, you know, if you sort of think about it out loud, how, you know, through those three lenses, the company, the product, and the customers, and you choose to start with it, whichever one you want, what has or hasn't changed? What's notable?

Christine Watts

[0:33:39]

I think from a customer perspective, I see more and more people trying to go deeper. I don't remember that being as much of a conversation in early days. Like, hey, this is for my leadership team. I'm working with an implementer. It was all kind of, you know, very set in that way, but I see more people trying to pull more teams into it in their company. So rolling out throughout and I see more people trying to do it themselves. And so like reading the book or hearing from a friend, whatever it is, like however they get exposed to the EOS world and saying like, Oh yeah, I could use a little bit more of that structure in my business without going the implementer route. So I feel like from a, a customer perspective, that's, that's one thing I feel like over the years I've seen a big difference in.

Mark Abbott

[0:34:29]

What do you have some thoughts on to what to attribute that to? I don't know.

Christine Watts

[0:34:36]

I think it'd be really tough to say. I think companies are trying to move faster. I think they're trying to like understand performance at a deeper level now. They're trying to understand like what's a seat, who's the person, what's automated, what's not.

Mark Abbott

[0:34:54]

Like I think

Christine Watts

[0:34:56]

I think there's just a lot more attention to that or like a manager that's also trying to create some structure for their team. And we're working with SMBs too. And so it's one of those things where a lot of times when I'm talking to a leadership team, it's not like they already have this set way that they do meetings or management or any of that performance in a company. And so this is kind of like a natural way for them to start thinking about it. I don't know if I have like a really like set answer on like why that would be happening more that now than in early days.

Mark Abbott

[0:35:32]

Can I, may I share my perspective and then get your sort of gut reaction to it. Um, I think generally speaking, and I know you're going to go, of course you do once I say this, right? But I think generally speaking, building a company has become more complex. and it's harder, right? I think generally speaking, especially with, and even pre-AI, right? But generally speaking, with access to all the stuff everybody has, right? You know, sort of that age of information and now if you really want to understand something and before with AI it's even easier, right? But if you wanted to understand, you know, sort of the, you know, what it takes to build a good company, you want to understand what it takes to be a good leader, you want to understand what it takes to be, you know, good at mentoring people, you want to understand how to build an organization. that, you know, from a cultural perspective, you know, it's just, there's everybody who's building a company, if they want to become a little more sophisticated, for lack of a better expression, Um, uh, they can't, right. There's, I mean, it's just that they have access to, you know, so much, right. Whether it's, you know, all the great stuff that Linceone's written, or you go back to Drucker or you go back to, you know, you know, some of the crazy folks that are like, not most people don't know, like I love, as you know. you know, Elliott Jacks, or you go back even to Deming and you go, you know, it just depends on like what little journey you want to take in terms of understanding stuff. But, you know, when EOS was started, Gino, you know, I always remember the big idea that, you know, every single one of us is constantly dealing with 100, specifically like founders and business owners. We're dealing like with 136 different issues all the time. And so if you want to strike, sort of, you know, double click in and understand how to do better, with regard to addressing those things. I mean, you know, you can, it's just there's so much out there. And the beauty of EOS is it simplifies it, right? That's the beauty of it.

Christine Watts

[0:37:49]

But,

Mark Abbott

[0:37:51]

But I just think generally speaking, you know, because of access to great teachings and stories and educational material, not just at the business owner level, but anybody in the company can access this stuff. And so it's like, hey, you know, why aren't we doing this better?

Christine Watts

[0:38:14]

Yeah, I totally agree. And I think as EOS has grown and there's more just like market awareness to that, I agree. I talk to people where like they're a second time founder and they're like, man, I already made some of these mistakes. And here's like a really simple, clear way that I can clearly communicate to my people too of how we're going to run the business. And like, here's a set book they can read to follow these instructions. You know, it's like, Like you said, I think that is all really simple, and they're getting the message out there more broadly, I would say, so more people are finding it. And you're right, I think the barrier to entry for starting a company, like people are seeing more competition, and there's more upstarts and that kind of stuff. So the more you can align people, get them running as quickly as you can, or moving towards the same vision, that kind of stuff, like people see the value there. And there's just a lot of like, you said, thought leadership around that. Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:39:12]

And, and, and I think it's harder, right.

Christine Watts

[0:39:14]

Because of all this in, in a lot of regard, you know, you can start, but then to sustain and keep growing and all those things. Yeah. Like, right.

Mark Abbott

[0:39:22]

And, and, you know, you, you, you know, you're. business owner, founder, whatever, first, second generation, you know, if you, if you have some decent, if you have good people who care and they have, you know, mild or better, you know, um, elements of curiosity, you know, I, I, I think, you know, you've got to be, you know, there's just, yeah, I don't want to say you have to be on your toes more cause I don't think that's right. But I think the game is just, like I said, I think the game's a little, a little harder today. And in a good way, right? Um, because, you know, because we're getting, we're getting, you know, we're getting as a, as a founder or a business owner, right? We're getting pushed on like, Hey, you know, I don't think you're doing this particularly well. And you're like, ah, you know, you're right. And so then it's like, okay, what do I got to do?

Christine Watts

[0:40:11]

And I, in fact,

Mark Abbott

[0:40:13]

know, done to go too far down a rabbit hole. But you know, I was at a SAS of SAS industry event two weeks ago or so. And I was leaving. I don't I didn't tell you a story. So I was leaving and waiting for the Uber and I, you know, was sporting the merch and, uh, and this person comes up to me, um, and, uh, says, hey, right, you're Mark Abbott, right? And I said, yeah. And, uh, it's like, hey, I read your stuff. I love it. Um, and then another person was standing there. And so all of a sudden, you know, we started getting this conversation about leadership and then someone asked a question and I said, you know, here's, you know, my perspective and a bunch of people were sitting around Um, and, and this guy walks up, he goes, I 100% agree with that. And we were just talking about how as the organizations grow, it's just more complex, you know, go through the stages of development and, and the demands on the leaders, just they, they, they, they, it gets, it gets higher, right? Um, and, and it gets harder. And now the question is, are you going to evolve and become a better leader? Or are you going to sort of like, no, I'm, I am who I am and I'm going to sit here. And I said, you know, there's this really interesting tension between where the founder is developmentally and where the senior leadership team is developmentally. And if the founder is, you know, like here, the team's not going to get any higher. But if the founder is trying to go like this, but the team is refusing to change, that's a dynamic as well. And so anyway, it was it was a really interesting conversation. I had to get into the Uber and I kind of left everybody wanting more. But then a guy followed up and said, hey, can you share some stuff with me? And so I shared it with him. And this morning he sent me a really long, thoughtful email and he was like pressing on stuff. Right. And he I think he's he's he's actually he's he's with Replit. Right. And, you know, he's sitting there struggling with leadership and, and, and entrepreneurship and all this kind of stuff. And he sent me this really long, you know, very thoughtful email about, you know, sort of, you know, how, how to lead and, and, and think about leadership in this new age. And so it's just, you know, as I said, I think this stuff was, I think this, push for better leadership was taking place before AI, but I think with AI now, right, it's really out there. And so, you know, to me it's really, it's very exciting, but because I think you know, I believe we evolve for the better. And so I think we're going to, we're going to have better leadership, not that we have bad leadership, but I mean, we're just going to get better and better at leadership. And, and so within inside of our companies, I feel like we're starting to, I don't say starting because I'm not as close as you are anymore at all. In fact, you're as close as almost anybody running ProServe now, right? But I feel like this need to take things to the next level. Um, You know, is I think it's real.

Christine Watts

[0:43:27]

Yeah. And I think, I think it's felt by a lot of people, even a company I'm working with right now as a family business. And they brought in a president from the outside instead of a family member. And he came in and he said, it's going to be really hard the first year. It's going to be hard the second year, but. the third year it's gonna be it's gonna be a lot easier and so it's funny how a lot of people I think like kind of see that and feel it and know they need to do something differently now just at which pace at which the world moves but at the same time I say this to Michelle all the time I'm like imagine if we had this stuff back when we started I'm like The amount of times I woke up at five to go to the gym, but then saw my inbox was like a hundred emails and was like, I just got to knock out 50 of these before I can do anything. You know, it's like, man, I have, it could have saved so much time. Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:44:23]

Yeah, well, I mean, especially now with, I mean, you know, we can, it's still not out in GA, right. But, but AskMass now being able to see up and down and across everything that's going on in the company. And it's like, Hey, right. There's so much, so, so much we're going to do with it. It's funny how some people are using he or she and I still think we're, we're in the it category. But, um, but to do with it and, um, and just, you know, like if you wake up in the morning, like you said, and, um, you say, hey, I got this 50 stuff going on. Do I really need to pound this stuff out? And it's like, no, you don't need to worry about it. Or, hey, but how about these, these five things? Here's, here's, here are the five things you need to probably focus on this week. Um, cause these are like, you can see throughout the organization, here's where the tension is. And, um, and just sort of, you know, give you a little bit of peace of mind with regard to the moment you're in, what really matters, because the reality is, is, you know, as a you know, as an individual in our own little space, right, this stuff can overwhelm you, but the reality is it's a long game. And I'm fascinated by the new person who came into this client you're talking about and saying, you know, look, the first year is going to be hard. The second year is going to be, it's still going to be hard, but not as hard. And then the third year, it's going to feel, it's going to start to feel like, you know, things are, you know, this is just the way we do things. My word's not, not his or hers, but, You know, for a lot of people hearing that it's going to take two to three years, that's like, whoa, you know?

Christine Watts

[0:46:02]

Yeah. But they were like, let's do it, you know, like something has to change. And like, you've got a perspective on how it should change and backed by, you know, all of these hundreds of thousands of other businesses that are doing it. So I, it's, um, it's been a cool process to be a part of and see like what parts of the owner is like still taking a hold of, which parts of the president's taking a hold of. So it's been good.

Mark Abbott

[0:46:26]

Yeah, I'm so, you know, well, you know, as someone who's been here from the very beginning, I'm just, I'm so excited about, you know, this part of the organization that you've stood up and, you know, it's very early innings, right?

Christine Watts

[0:46:41]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[0:46:43]

But I, you know, just to be able to be shoulder to shoulder and helping our clients, you know, sort of develop the competencies and then the confidence in the competence. And so that they can, they can just build better businesses and, and, and, and help their people build better lives. And then, but to do it, I don't want to say it's the 90 way because that seems Right. Something seems, something seems arrogant about saying that. But, you know, doing it in a manner that's honest as opposed to, you know, you know, like, like this person did. Right. It's going to be two to three years. Right. Um, it's, you know, don't, don't, don't say things that are not true. Right. Don't try to say things that you think's going to land just because you're worrying about how it lands. And, you know, it's like conversations around, you know, why does the, why, you know, we, we restructured the way we do product and engineering within the last couple of weeks. And the reality is that those changes, not every, change is hard. And so for some people, the changes, you know, makes all the sense in the world. And then for some other people, especially people that are impacted directly by it, right, it kind of sucks. But the reality is, you know, the world changes and we got to change and our organization's got to change and we're dealing with a lot of industries. Ours, in particular, is dealing with a lot, you know, an increasing amount of information, an increasing amount of complexity, an increasing amount of opportunity, right? An increasing amount of competition. I mean, it's just, it's, you know, it's just, you know, a lot of industries, a lot of companies are dealing with, you know, a more complex competitive environment. And in order to do well with that higher level of competition, that higher level of complexity, you know, your organization needs to be better run.

Christine Watts

[0:48:51]

Yeah. Or just like willing, willing to adapt to like, even another change we've gone through over the last six to nine months is actually adding a sales org because previously we, we had onboarding and we had this, you know, stance and philosophy of like, we don't, we don't sell, we serve. And that's always been true. You know, of course you're still kind of selling through that, but the, the real like heart behind it is. we're not pushing something or saying something that's not true. Like we're giving the honest, like this is going to be hard for this amount of time and then it'll start to get easier. And so, um, now we've obviously got a sales team and they still like kind of hold that, um, mentality of like, I don't need to push something just to push something. I want to do what's right by the client. But we're actually, we made those changes and like helping people see like the heart behind it and like who we are is still there, even though like it is a sales team. I think that, like, willingness to adapt and change the company and, like, keep moving things forward is, like, a big part, like you said, of, like, kind of maintaining and continuing to be relevant and successful and all those things.

Mark Abbott

[0:49:56]

Yeah, so we talked about how the customers have changed and so I guess the summary is the nature, it seems as if our customers see that the nature of, you know, starting and building and systemizing and then integrating and then ultimately Um, you know, having something you pass off to the next generation has just gotten a little bit harder. Um, and we, and we can see that in our customer base. So that's, that's that. And I said, product and, and, and, and company change, you know, which would, which would you prefer to hit on next? You know, how do you think either the product or the company has changed in the last decade?

Christine Watts

[0:50:38]

I think they all kind of follow that similar theme, though. So as our customers are thinking about how do I expand this in my company or get more value from the information that I'm putting in, that's how we're trying to evolve the product, too. How can we connect more things together? How do my rocks flow into my one-year goals? How do I have multiple teams so that each team can have specific one-year goals? How can I have information shared across the company in a centralized knowledge portal so that everyone has access to that? And then how can I actually ask our AI, Maz, about that information so it's pulling it all together? So I think the ways that we're evolving the product or trying to like elevate information and the right information and like how that's shared and worked with across different departments, I guess is like kind of thematically how I've seen the product change without kind of getting into like the little nitty gritty things. Um, and, and maybe that holds true for internally too. Cause like I said, like how we're supporting people through like a really specific sales onboarding process where people can see and demo and experience product before they join. They can work with professional services to get like a more hands-on tactical approach, like we'll work department by department with organizations so that they're getting set up with scorecard and rocks and level 10 meetings. I don't know, maybe it kind of all kind of follows that same like as our clients are adapting and adopting like the new world, like we're just trying to like be the support and like provide things back to them that kind of fit that same narrative.

Mark Abbott

[0:52:15]

Yeah, I think, I think, I think for the last two years, you know, my perspective has been that we got to be ahead of where our clients are. Right. Um, you know, we, we, you know, if, if, if we're constantly chasing where they are, then all we're doing is, um, in some respects, you know, we're, we're, we're trying to fix that that is and a lot of that that is is more that that was as opposed to really trying to say, hey, you know, this is where the world is going. We have some confidence in this. And so this is why we're doing the things we're doing. And and so that when you run into the things that we think you're going to start to run into, we're actually here for you to support you through that. And I think, you know, the We raised our series B at the end of, for all practical purposes, at the end of 23 in order to start to put AI into the platform. It took us two and a half years to really get what we wanted to get done. done like big picture wise and so finally it's it's it's it's coming out and and you know I took way longer than I ever thought it would. But you know the good news is you know I think we're already starting to see with everybody in the beta that it's like wow this is really helping me see things and And be prepared for things or anticipate and start to develop some of these capabilities before it's like super, super. so important that you're now flailing. So, you know, I think it's been hard, right, to get to this place. As I said, I'm a little, I wish we would have been here six months ahead of time. But the reality is, is that, you know, really the power of AI to really help I think Opus 4.5, which is now plus or minus six months ago, was sort of that leap where all of a sudden you really started to get sort of the power of AI in such a manner that you could really use it to help the customer. Um, and so the reality is, you know, it, we had to, while we were working on all this stuff, the market also had to, in some respects, or the technology had to catch up, and I think it's finally caught up. So, you know, we're exactly where we're supposed to be, right? Um, so ending on, on, on sort of, um, we're exactly where we're supposed to be. When you stand back and you think about the 10 years for you personally and where things are and the journey you've had, if you had someone close to you who was you 10 years ago, right? Asking you about how to think about their career and how to think about, you know, the decision, knowing everything you know now, right? You know, what would you, what would you say are, you know, a couple things to sort of just understand, appreciate it, you know, be prepared for, right, whatever it is.

Christine Watts

[0:55:49]

Yeah I mean that's the interesting thing is like how I don't know if you can be prepared and I think one thing that 90 did that I didn't realize initially was like making you be introspective about yourself. So I think like through this process I learned a lot about myself and so like if I were to go back 10 years from now like now I know about myself.

Mark Abbott

[0:56:17]

I love

Christine Watts

[0:56:18]

the unknown or like taking on challenges and like doing the thing that's not defined yet and so if other like I've had conversations other people that are thinking about taking a job or doing a thing and it's like well what what type of person are you because if you're going to join startup or something like you have to be kind of really comfortable with that level of ambiguity and I know now about myself that I I love it you know like that's kind of really where I thrive of like I've got kind of this big mission and we've got to figure out how to get there and I think over the last 10 years right we've we've dealt with external factors and ups and downs we dealt with internal like like we've dealt with like so many different things and so I don't know like the advice that you give to somebody else else is so tough and I think the one thing like I've really taken away is just like the personal aspect of like who are you and how do you like to work and what do you want out of life and like all of those things I think are such big factors in terms of like if you'll be successful or want to sustain or stay in a job or a place and I think Michelle and I talk about this a lot too because she's obviously the other one that's been here um alongside me too um supporting you initially and I feel like we both are this is it's ever changing like we're not we're never doing the same thing for you know two or three years, like we're not doing the same thing for like six months a lot of the time, like, like what we just talked about with the over the last few years. So, it's one of those things where it's like, man, I love that kind of, you know, we're just rolling up our sleeves and figuring it out and you know, whatever is going to come at us is going to come at us. So, I guess that's my answer and non-answer.

Mark Abbott

[0:58:10]

Yeah, no, it's, I think it's a great answer, right? I think You know, and, and, and, and in some, you know, the old expression, right, you don't know what you don't know. And so, you know, some of it is just, you know, trial and error. And some of it is being at peace. Like I always say, you know, I know people still to this day are like, what do you really mean? Right. But, you know, it's just being, you know, at peace with where you are and, you know, we're all going to get hit up in the head. And one thing, you know, you know, you've seen, I mean, God, right? You've seen us have, you know, you've seen our best and our worst moments. You've seen, you know, how we struggle with stuff, you know, and, you know, no one's perfect. You know, I've said it a thousand times, I make as many bad decisions as anybody in the company. But I'm like, I'm at peace with, it's like, I'm not going to beat myself up over a bad decision. Do I try not to do it ever again? Yeah, not to ever do it again, but, you know, uh, and, and, and so, you know, it's like if you have expectations of others that you don't have of yourself or you have expectations of yourself that you don't have of others, um, either way, right? You know, it's, it's, it's kind of like, you know, um, I don't know, maybe as an older guy, it's like, you know, having just, you know, a level of, showing grace with regard to the fact that this is extraordinarily, that life's hard but it's cool, right? And, you know, the thing about my final comment here, you know, I do a lot, as you know, I do a lot of research and I do a lot of thinking about stuff and, and I, you know, think about where AI is going to be and where society is going to be in, you know, 50 years as an example. And, and, you know, humans are amazingly creative people. You know, we're staked, right? We're mortal. Um, AI doesn't have the stake that we have in the decisions that are being made. And, um, and it's also not solving for things that we're, that we're struggling with, right? Because it can't, because it doesn't have the stakes that we have. And so, and ultimately that, that we're on the leading edge of the way information advances. We don't know what we don't know. I don't know. There's, I think that there's, I think that humility is like becoming, it's always been important because humility is, if you're, if you're not humble, then you're not, you're really not curious and you're not wanting to learn and you're not willing to take feedback. Something about, you know, humility that I'm, jonesing on right now, but anyway, I, uh, yeah, it's, it's hard to, it's, it's, it's, it, when you're thinking about what you want to do and where you want to go, you have to recognize back to humility that there's a lot of stuff you just don't know. Um, and, but just, you know, avoiding taking a step, that's not the right answer, right? It's just take a step. Right? Learn about yourself, as you were saying, right? Find out whether or not you're comfortable, like, in an organization. It's not just a startup, because, you know, in theory, right, we're, you know, are we a startup with 40s, you know, $5 million in revenue, with 10 years old? You know, I don't think we are, in one regard. In another regard, God, I feel like we're a startup, big time.

Christine Watts

[1:01:35]

Yeah, I know. And I feel like even on the humility comment, it's like so much of even like early days, you have to be like humble and resilient because like you're getting a lot of no's and you're getting a lot of like, that's wrong. And I mean, especially from our story, right? Like we were not loved from the beginning, I would say. And so, I mean, I even think of Michelle as like one of the most like humble and resilient people I know, like working with all of the coaches and like taking so much like passionate feedback. Um, but I, I think like a lot of us had to like have that and like also with like the competitive side of like still wanting to win and pushing through that. And so I think that's a big part of, you know, the DNA of like who I am and who the company is. And, um, you know, just continuing to, I guess, like press on into like that unknown and next phase of the product and the company and everything. Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[1:02:30]

It's wild, right?

Christine Watts

[1:02:31]

Yeah.

Mark Abbott

[1:02:31]

I mean, it just, you know, it'll be so wild to see who we are in 10 years.

Christine Watts

[1:02:37]

Yeah. All right.

Mark Abbott

[1:02:38]

With that, thank you so much for, you know, for, for being on this journey with us and helping us build this thing. And, you know, generally speaking, I love you.

Christine Watts

[1:02:49]

Love you too. All right. See ya.